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Interesting. Thanks!
According to Dr. Jobe, who originated the procedure, it's not true that pitchers throw harder after the surgery. He has said that because the injury is usually chronic, pitchers lose velocity as they try to compensate for the pain by altering their mechanics. After the surgery, they can often throw pain free, and are able to regain their former velocity.
According to Dr. Jobe, who originated the procedure, it's not true that pitchers throw harder after the surgery. He has said that because the injury is usually chronic, pitchers lose velocity as they try to compensate for the pain by altering their mechanics. After the surgery, they can often throw pain free, and are able to regain their former velocity.
Thanks :)
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 07:36 PM
Ok IF the Drew signing makes having Manny & Mats on the same team a no-go, who, as Yankee fans, would you rather see go? It would be nice to see the Mats negotiations fall apart. Manny's fearsome (unless you beat him 5 times in a row) but he will be 35 in May...
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 07:36 PM
I've got Jimmy Key at 5.34 Ks per nine. And Buehrle at 5.22. Are my numbers wrong, or do you think bit difference is significant of anything? Mark Buehrle is the reincarnation of Jimmy Key, which is exactly why the Yanks won't be getting him for a package of Melky and Proctor.
Wait, wait, wait. You've got to hold up before saying that Buehrle is the reincarnation of Key - the only pitcher in the present (or close to) to succeed with that low of a K rate.
I'll quote, "Key is not an exception to the rule that low-strikeout pitchers never last; rather, Key defines the limits to the rule. Key was a lefty, he was very smart, he got a lot of ground balls, and he had wonderfrul control - like Tommy John and Tom Glavine. These typ eof pitchers define exactly how many strikeouts you absolutely have to have to win consistently in teh major leagues, if you're left-handed and you do everything well. If you're left handed and you do everything well, you can win consistently even if your strikeout rate is a little bit below the league norm."
One major difference that has to be mentioned is that Key got more grounders than Buehrle, and, because of this, kept the ball in the ballpark more. That's very key. And, if you believe the above quote, that Key defines the limit of having continued success with that K rate, that difference is very important.
And before you mentioned their respective ERA+'s when comparing them. There is a major difference between Key's who spent 15 years in the league including time in his mid and late 30's when he was on the downhill, and a guy that has yet to do that. Obviously Key's career ERA+ went down during his time and he was a better pitcher earlier on.
edit: I forgot to mention the quote was from Bill James in his Abstract on page 292.
CallOfTheCrow
12-05-06, 07:37 PM
I'd rather see the Mats deal fall apart.
You can score all the runs you want but it doesn't mean a thing if your SP cant hold it.
I'd rather see the Mats deal fall apart.
You can score all the runs you want but it doesn't mean a thing if your SP cant hold it.
Is that a crack at Wakefield's/Schilling's age? I mean, they could go between innings, you know. Sheesh.
CallOfTheCrow
12-05-06, 07:41 PM
Is that a crack at Wakefield's/Schilling's age? I mean, they could go between innings, you know. Sheesh.
haha. It took me a couple times to catch that but it finally sunk in. :)
ryanm1058123
12-05-06, 07:42 PM
she drives me crazy
and i can't help myself
DOO DOO
she drives me crazy
and i can't stop the way I feel
she drives me crazy
and i can't help myself
DOO DOO
she drives me crazy
and i can't stop the way I feel
*This song from the 1990's brought to you by Ryan 1998387436543553*
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 07:48 PM
she drives me crazy
and i can't help myself
DOO DOO
she drives me crazy
and i can't stop the way I feel
Drinking on a Tuesday night?
Spiker101
12-05-06, 07:55 PM
Wait, wait, wait. You've got to hold up before saying that Buehrle is the reincarnation of Key - the only pitcher in the present (or close to) to succeed with that low of a K rate.
I'll quote, "Key is not an exception to the rule that low-strikeout pitchers never last; rather, Key defines the limits to the rule. Key was a lefty, he was very smart, he got a lot of ground balls, and he had wonderfrul control - like Tommy John and Tom Glavine. These typ eof pitchers define exactly how many strikeouts you absolutely have to have to win consistently in teh major leagues, if you're left-handed and you do everything well. If you're left handed and you do everything well, you can win consistently even if your strikeout rate is a little bit below the league norm."
One major difference that has to be mentioned is that Key got more grounders than Buehrle, and, because of this, kept the ball in the ballpark more. That's very key. And, if you believe the above quote, that Key defines the limit of having continued success with that K rate, that difference is very important.
And before you mentioned their respective ERA+'s when comparing them. There is a major difference between Key's who spent 15 years in the league including time in his mid and late 30's when he was on the downhill, and a guy that has yet to do that. Obviously Key's career ERA+ went down during his time and he was a better pitcher earlier on.
.
I'll take the last point first:
Key's ERA+ numbers in his last four seasons were 81, 108, 128 and 108, but in one of the 108 seasons and the 81 season he combined to total 110 innings in the two seasons, so that didn't affect his career ERA+ more than 2-3 points. His problem in the later years was injuries which kept him out of action and didn't affect greatly his career numbers, except obviously innings pitched.
If you look at their 162-game average seasons, Key and Buehrle are remarkably similiar. Key averaged 205 innings, Buehrle 224; Key 121 Ks, Buehrle 130, Key 52 walks, Buehrle 51 walks. Key 20 homers, Buehrle 25. Key of course pitched much of his career in the 80s and early 90s before the home run explosion.
Buehrle is the prototypical crafty lefty and provided they stay healthy, these guys get better with age because they get smarter.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 08:13 PM
I'll take the last point first:
Key's ERA+ numbers in his last four seasons were 81, 108, 128 and 108, but in one of the 108 seasons and the 81 season he combined to total 110 innings in the two seasons, so that didn't affect his career ERA+ more than 2-3 points. His problem in the later years was injuries which kept him out of action and didn't affect greatly his career numbers, except obviously innings pitched.
If you look at their 162-game average seasons, Key and Buehrle are remarkably similiar. Key averaged 205 innings, Buehrle 224; Key 121 Ks, Buehrle 130, Key 52 walks, Buehrle 51 walks. Key 20 homers, Buehrle 25. Key of course pitched much of his career in the 80s and early 90s before the home run explosion.
Buehrle is the prototypical crafty lefty and provided they stay healthy, these guys get better with age because they get smarter.
Well, they did still affect his career ERA+. My only point is that the fact that their ERA+'s are identical (or Key's was 1 point better), to me, shows that Buehrle definitely won't be as good as Key. If Buehrle pitches until he's 38, he'll also experience those years and that will affect his ERA+. Maybe not by much, because there won't be as many IP's in those seasons due to injuries, but it will still be affected.
Very similar indeed. Except of course the HR's are a bit higher for Buehrle - which makes him a worse pitcher. He also probably induces a few less DP's as Key got more grounders than Buehrle does.
But do they always get better with age? What happens if they lose a couple MPH in their velocity and that affects their K's a bit? If you believe the quote I provided, that would not be a good thing.
Lastly, is the question of Buehrle's season last year. His K rate dropped and his ERA greatly increased. To me, that indicates that he will need to increase the K rate to get that ERA down again. If he can do that - and get back to striking out another batter or 1.5 batters per 9, like he had been, then I agree he would be a very solid starter - not as good as Key was, given that he'll give up a few more longballs, but very solid. If he doesn't, then I'm not a fan of having him on my team.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 08:35 PM
Well, they did still affect his career ERA+. My only point is that the fact that their ERA+'s are identical (or Key's was 1 point better), to me, shows that Buehrle definitely won't be as good as Key. If Buehrle pitches until he's 38, he'll also experience those years and that will affect his ERA+. Maybe not by much, because there won't be as many IP's in those seasons due to injuries, but it will still be affected.
Very similar indeed. Except of course the HR's are a bit higher for Buehrle - which makes him a worse pitcher. He also probably induces a few less DP's as Key got more grounders than Buehrle does.
But do they always get better with age? What happens if they lose a couple MPH in their velocity and that affects their K's a bit? If you believe the quote I provided, that would not be a good thing.
Lastly, is the question of Buehrle's season last year. His K rate dropped and his ERA greatly increased. To me, that indicates that he will need to increase the K rate to get that ERA down again. If he can do that - and get back to striking out another batter or 1.5 batters per 9, like he had been, then I agree he would be a very solid starter - not as good as Key was, given that he'll give up a few more longballs, but very solid. If he doesn't, then I'm not a fan of having him on my team.
I'm sorry you can't make the claim that because Buehrle is 28, his ERA+ will certainly decline. In fact, using Key as the example, it'll probably go up. At age 30, Key posted an ERA+ of 138 and followed it up with seasons of 116, 141 and 142. It was at age 34 that Key began having injury problems. The one healthy season he had at the end, at age 36, he posted a 138. Glavine, who's the same type, was consistently better ages 29-36 than he was earlier. Jamie Moyer didn't start putting it together until he was 33. The crafty lefty is a type that ages well.
On the home run issue, we're talking about very different eras. Also Buehrle threw 20 more innings per season on average, which accounts for 2-3 homers by itself. That's not a significant difference, especially given the imbalance in the two leagues.
Which brings us to the '06 season. Of course it's a concern. If he'd had his normal season we woudln't even be having this discussion. Nobody in their right mind would even consider trading a lefty starter capable of consistently putting up a Top 10 ERA while eating 225 innings a season. It's a bit of a risk and that's why you give players you acquire in trades a thorough physical. The chances are his second half decline was simply a matter of fatigue after an exhausting postseason the previous year. Maybe it was mechanical. There would be a risk but it's not even in the same park as the risk of acquiring a mid 30s NL pitcher who has a quarter inch gap between the bone and his elbow socket. Andy Pettitte is a big time risk. Buehrle is a small one.
bambam51
12-05-06, 08:38 PM
I know this is the Yankees WM Thread, but apparently the Drew deal is 5 years, $70 mil.
I thought they were broke...rotoworld pretty much sums it up:
"it's going to be tough for the Red Sox to find room for Ramirez, J.D. Drew, Daisuke Matsuzaka and maybe Julio Lugo and Eric Gagne and still stay in the vicinity of the luxury tax cutoff."
Which is why I suspect Theo has a deal in place for Manny or at least a couple options to deal him. Worst case scenario, the Sox come out of it with an affordable closer by trading Manny. Right now, they're just probably trying to get the other GM's to enhance their proposals for Manny.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 08:48 PM
I'm sorry you can't make the claim that because Buehrle is 28, his ERA+ will certainly decline. In fact, using Key as the example, it'll probably go up. At age 30, Key posted an ERA+ of 138 and followed it up with seasons of 116, 141 and 142. It was at age 34 that Key began having injury problems. The one healthy season he had at the end, at age 36, he posted a 138. Glavine, who's the same type, was consistently better ages 29-36 than he was earlier. Jamie Moyer didn't start putting it together until he was 33. The crafty lefty is a type that ages well.
I can claim that there is a good chance that if he pitches until he's 38 or so, he'll probably have some years where he's hurt and he won't be as effective, thus decreasing his overall ERA+. By my very rough math, Key's ERA+ was probably about 133 when he was 27...
Some crafty leftys age well, others don't.
On the home run issue, we're talking about very different eras. Also Buehrle threw 20 more innings per season on average, which accounts for 2-3 homers by itself. That's not a significant difference, especially given the imbalance in the two leagues.
20 innings does not count for 2-3 HR's by itself. Here's a better stat: Key's HR/9 was 0.88. Buehrle's is 1.04. And there's the GB thing in that Key would have gotten more DP's than Buehrle gets. If you believe that Key defined the limits to have continued success with that K/9 (and maybe you don't, that's fine. I personally do), then the fact that he doesn't get as many grounders would indicate his success will be less consistent.
Which brings us to the '06 season. Of course it's a concern. If he'd had his normal season we woudln't even be having this discussion. Nobody in their right mind would even consider trading a lefty starter capable of consistently putting up a Top 10 ERA while eating 225 innings a season. It's a bit of a risk and that's why you give players you acquire in trades a thorough physical. The chances are his second half decline was simply a matter of fatigue after an exhausting postseason the previous year. Maybe it was mechanical. There would be a risk but it's not even in the same park as the risk of acquiring a mid 30s NL pitcher who has a quarter inch gap between the bone and his elbow socket. Andy Pettitte is a big time risk. Buehrle is a small one.
All fair points. I would dispute that Pettitte, with a 1 year contract, is a "big time risk." As for Buehrle, I'd much rather keep Proctor and Melky (who knows what it would take anyways), see how Buehrle does this year, and then consider signing him as a FA after this season.
We disagree about the apparent risks for Pettitte and Buehrle for 2007, but I, personally, think they are about equal and Pettitte will do a better job this season.
All in all, I do think better of Buehrle than I did before having this discussion.
I don't think this has been brought up yet but apparantly Kenny Williams approached Cash about trying to trade for Humberto Sanchez and Cash told him he had no intention of trading him.
It's pretty exciting in my eyes simply because that tells me that Brian probably views him as a starter and not a reliever.
And get this, the offer may have been Mark Buerhle.
"According to a baseball official, the White Sox have expressed interest in Humberto Sanchez, the young right-hander the Yankees acquired from the Tigers last month in the Gary Sheffield trade.
One source with knowledge of the Yankees' thinking said that Buehrle, who is set to earn $9.5 million in 2007 before becoming a free agent, would not likely be enticing enough to pry Sanchez away from New York. "I don't think he's going anywhere," the source said. "It would have to be a pretty overwhelming offer."
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061205&content_id=1751436&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp
*This song from the 1990's brought to you by Ryan 1998387436543553*
That's not an 80s tune? ;)
GhostofPonson
12-05-06, 08:55 PM
I don't know if you guys know, but Tom Verducci says that Pettite is close to signing with the Yanks
indianyanksfan
12-05-06, 08:56 PM
I don't know if you guys know, but Tom Verducci says that Pettite is close to signing with the Yanks
wang/pettitte/moose i'd go to war with and if rj is half of what he was in 05 i think we are going to have a good year.
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 08:58 PM
I don't know if you guys know, but Tom Verducci says that Pettite is close to signing with the Yanks
Same rumor we heard earlier? I've been out for a bit, any new news on the Pettitte front?
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 09:01 PM
I don't think this has been brought up yet but apparantly Kenny Williams approached Cash about trying to trade for Humberto Sanchez and Cash told him he had no intention of trading him.
It's pretty exciting in my eyes simply because that tells me that Brian probably views him as a starter and not a reliever.
I loved seeing that, I think they think highly of Sanchez.
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 09:02 PM
Lastly, is the question of Buehrle's season last year. His K rate dropped and his ERA greatly increased. To me, that indicates that he will need to increase the K rate to get that ERA down again.
You obviously didn't watch Buehrle in the second half last season. His problem was not keeping the ball down.
Also, your logic sucks.
Buehrle in the first half: 4.02 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 3.95 K/9
Buehrle in the second half: 6.44 ERA, 1.64 WHIP, 4.89 K/9
This contradicts your theory. :o
EDIT: Upon further review it would have been better if you actually checked the sats before claiming Buehrle's K rate dropped as his ERA increased.
You obviously didn't watch Buehrle in the second half last season. His problem was not keeping the ball down.
Also, your logic sucks.
Buehrle in the first half: 4.02 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 3.95 K/9
Buehrle in the second half: 6.44 ERA, 1.64 WHIP, 4.89 K/9
This contradicts your theory. :o
I don't know much about logic, but his WHIP is radically higher.
ryanm1058123
12-05-06, 09:12 PM
That's not an 80s tune? ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPrPNQYBFgU
;)
New York Miracle
12-05-06, 09:13 PM
Offer Igawa a contract for one year at negative 26million
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 09:14 PM
I don't know much about logic, but his WHIP is radically higher.
JWF was basically saying ERA and K/9 were inversely proportional and cited Buehrle as an example. Buehrle last year proved the oppostie, so his logic is wrong in regards to the relationship between ERA and K/9 for Mark.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:15 PM
Also, your logic sucks.
Welcome.
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 09:16 PM
You obviously didn't watch Buehrle in the second half last season. His problem was not keeping the ball down.
Also, your logic sucks.
Buehrle in the first half: 4.02 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 3.95 K/9
Buehrle in the second half: 6.44 ERA, 1.64 WHIP, 4.89 K/9
This contradicts your theory. :o
EDIT: Upon further review it would have been better if you actually checked the sats before claiming Buehrle's K rate dropped as his ERA increased.
His K rate was terrible all season though, a 4.89 K/9 isn't much to brag about.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:20 PM
(Rotoworld)
ESPNews is reporting that the Red Sox and Julio Lugo have agreed to terms on a four-year, $36 million contract.
Wow.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 09:21 PM
I can claim that there is a good chance that if he pitches until he's 38 or so, he'll probably have some years where he's hurt and he won't be as effective, thus decreasing his overall ERA+. By my very rough math, Key's ERA+ was probably about 133 when he was 27...
Some crafty leftys age well, others don't.
20 innings does not count for 2-3 HR's by itself. Here's a better stat: Key's HR/9 was 0.88. Buehrle's is 1.04. And there's the GB thing in that Key would have gotten more DP's than Buehrle gets. If you believe that Key defined the limits to have continued success with that K/9 (and maybe you don't, that's fine. I personally do), then the fact that he doesn't get as many grounders would indicate his success will be less consistent.
All fair points. I would dispute that Pettitte, with a 1 year contract, is a "big time risk." As for Buehrle, I'd much rather keep Proctor and Melky (who knows what it would take anyways), see how Buehrle does this year, and then consider signing him as a FA after this season.
We disagree about the apparent risks for Pettitte and Buehrle for 2007, but I, personally, think they are about equal and Pettitte will do a better job this season.
All in all, I do think better of Buehrle than I did before having this discussion.
You're being very crafty yourself:D 133 by age 27 is about right. Then he went out and threw 97 at age 28 and 93 at age 29. I can guarantee he didn't have a 133 ERA+ going into his age 30 season.
I couldn't find the HR/9IP so thanks. Pretty close and given the different eras I would think insignficiant.
I don't know what to think about the K/9 issue. If Wang continues his success I think James might have to redefine the lower limit, but I don't know. I think the issue is whether or not pitchers do or don't have the ability to control what hitters do with balls put into play. I think there's still some more research that needs to be done on that.
Don't get me wrong about Pettitte. If the Yanks can get him on a one-year deal, I'm in favor of taking that chance. We at least know he won't melt under the lights. Something we don't know about Pavano or Igawa. The Yanks aren't getting Buehrle anyway, but he's a guy, if he rebounds in '07, to keep an eye on next off season.
Metroidman
12-05-06, 09:21 PM
So the red sox are going over the Luxary Tax?
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:23 PM
So the red sox are going over the Luxary Tax?
Must be. Otherwise either Manny has to go or Mats negotiations are gonna blow up.
genius-24
12-05-06, 09:24 PM
What;s the luxury tax limit?
bambam51
12-05-06, 09:25 PM
I don't think this has been brought up yet but apparantly Kenny Williams approached Cash about trying to trade for Humberto Sanchez and Cash told him he had no intention of trading him.
It's pretty exciting in my eyes simply because that tells me that Brian probably views him as a starter and not a reliever.
And get this, the offer may have been Mark Buerhle.
"According to a baseball official, the White Sox have expressed interest in Humberto Sanchez, the young right-hander the Yankees acquired from the Tigers last month in the Gary Sheffield trade.
One source with knowledge of the Yankees' thinking said that Buehrle, who is set to earn $9.5 million in 2007 before becoming a free agent, would not likely be enticing enough to pry Sanchez away from New York. "I don't think he's going anywhere," the source said. "It would have to be a pretty overwhelming offer."
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061205&content_id=1751436&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp
I think the organization will do everything they can to groom him as a starter. The worst case scenario is that his durability limits him and they eventually steer him into the closer role and he becomes Mo's successor.
Either way, he's untouchable.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 09:26 PM
What;s the luxury tax limit?
$148 m. They're going to push it, if they keep Manny, sign Mats and Gagne
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 09:27 PM
His K rate was terrible all season though, a 4.89 K/9 isn't much to brag about.
You better dump Wang then regardless of the GB/FB. Just imagine how many more chances he gives the infield to committ an error over a guy with even an average K/9 rate.
I really don't get the big obsession with K/9. Just give me results. A weak flyball, soft liner, double play grounder to short, strikeout on three curveballs in the dirt, or a 10 pitch at-bat that ends with a strikeout with a 98MPH fastball. Who cares?
If the White Sox offered Javy Vazquez or Mark Buehrle for the same package the Yankees were offering, everybody who supports the K/9 emphasis will take Vazquez. They have to otherwise he/she is a hypocrite. Vazquez has a much more impressive K/9, and he was actually pretty good with the HR ball last season, better than Buehrle.
How many of you would take Vazquez over Buehrle?
genius-24
12-05-06, 09:27 PM
$148 m. They're going to push it, if they keep Manny, sign Mats and Gagne
Thx :)
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 09:27 PM
You obviously didn't watch Buehrle in the second half last season. His problem was not keeping the ball down.
Also, your logic sucks.
Buehrle in the first half: 4.02 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 3.95 K/9
Buehrle in the second half: 6.44 ERA, 1.64 WHIP, 4.89 K/9
This contradicts your theory. :o
EDIT: Upon further review it would have been better if you actually checked the sats before claiming Buehrle's K rate dropped as his ERA increased.
Overall, in 2006, Buehrle's K/9 was less than it was in 2005. And, consequentally, his ERA was much higher. That's what I said. that has yet to be proven wrong.
And no, that small sample size does not contradict my theory.
I checked the stats. I saw a decrease in K rate in 2006 (also K/BB and G/F) and I saw an increase in ERA. A rather large increase.
bambam51
12-05-06, 09:28 PM
(Rotoworld)
ESPNews is reporting that the Red Sox and Julio Lugo have agreed to terms on a four-year, $36 million contract.
Wow.
Let's see, 51 million for Matsuzaka + another 30 mil at least + 70 mil for Drew + 32 mil for Lugo.
Yup, they have a deal lined up for Manny for sure. They're getting a closer. Either Shields or Cordero.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:29 PM
How many of you would take Vazquez over Buehrle?
That's not a fair question because we already had Vazquez and he was pathetic. A neutral party might say Vazquez, might say Buehrle.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:30 PM
Let's see, 51 million for Matsuzaka + another 30 mil at least + 70 mil for Drew + 32 mil for Lugo.
Yup, they have a deal lined up for Manny for sure. They're getting a closer. Either Shields or Cordero.
This stuff must be a smokescreen then " Red Sox officials told SI.com on Tuesday that hopes of a Manny Ramirez deal were all but dead.".
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 09:30 PM
You better dump Wang then regardless of the GB/FB. Just imagine how many more chances he gives the infield to committ an error over a guy with even an average K/9 rate.
I really don't get the big obsession with K/9. Just give me results. A weak flyball, soft liner, double play grounder to short, strikeout on three curveballs in the dirt, or a 10 pitch at-bat that ends with a strikeout with a 98MPH fastball. Who cares?
So far, Wang has been an exception to the rule. Will this hold up for several years, we aren't sure and it has been discussed here at length.
An out is an out, but when your K/9 is at a level where only a few pitchers in the entire history of major league baseball have been able to have sustained success, I think it is something that has to be looked at.
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 09:32 PM
This stuff must be a smokescreen then " Red Sox officials told SI.com on Tuesday that hopes of a Manny Ramirez deal were all but dead.".
I'd think so, I can't see the Sox going this nuts in the FA market and holding Manny. We'll see.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 09:32 PM
How many of you would take Vazquez over Buehrle?
mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2004/open/topplays/archive10/102004_bosnya_damon_grand_slam_350.wmv?ct2=8130958041161775855468&ct3=12635678&ct4=-1&ct5=11_5_2006&media_type=wms&av_type=video&event_pk=361309&product=mlb_tp
bambam51
12-05-06, 09:32 PM
This stuff must be a smokescreen then " Red Sox officials told SI.com on Tuesday that hopes of a Manny Ramirez deal were all but dead.".
It sure is. If they keep Manny, can they add a closer like Gagne without exceding the luxury tax threshold?
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:33 PM
mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2004/open/topplays/archive10/102004_bosnya_damon_grand_slam_350.wmv?ct2=8130958041161775855468&ct3=12635678&ct4=-1&ct5=11_5_2006&media_type=wms&av_type=video&event_pk=361309&product=mlb_tp
You need to put a warning with that link :barf:
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 09:35 PM
You're being very crafty yourself:D 133 by age 27 is about right. Then he went out and threw 97 at age 28 and 93 at age 29. I can guarantee he didn't have a 133 ERA+ going into his age 30 season.
I couldn't find the HR/9IP so thanks. Pretty close and given the different eras I would think insignficiant.
You know I try.:) That he didn't...
www.thebaseballcube.com gives those.
I don't know what to think about the K/9 issue. If Wang continues his success I think James might have to redefine the lower limit, but I don't know. I think the issue is whether or not pitchers do or don't have the ability to control what hitters do with balls put into play. I think there's still some more research that needs to be done on that.
Don't get me wrong about Pettitte. If the Yanks can get him on a one-year deal, I'm in favor of taking that chance. We at least know he won't melt under the lights. Something we don't know about Pavano or Igawa. The Yanks aren't getting Buehrle anyway, but he's a guy, if he rebounds in '07, to keep an eye on next off season.
Yep, Wang could redefine it. Wang is just a strange case and I don't know what to think. Do I want to go against what the history of all these pitchers has told me based on my eye? I like Wang a lot as a pitcher. We'll see if he comes up with a curveball to strike guys out... I don't know.
Agreed. (Although I just read somewhere hear that the White Sox are very interested in Sanchez and we don't want to give him up).
I'm a believer that a pitchcer needs to strike out a certain amount of batters to have success in this league, so seing Buehrle going down like he did puts up red flags. But yes, after this lengthy discussion, we, for the most part, agree on a number of things. Hell, I don't think we really disagreed on much to start off with with this argument.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 09:36 PM
If the Sox lose Manny and in return get a Shields or Cordero, I will be the happiest man in the world...
bambam51
12-05-06, 09:37 PM
If the Sox lose Manny and in return get a Shields or Cordero, I will be the happiest man in the world... That's just part of what they'll get.
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 09:41 PM
That's just part of what they'll get.
The rumored 3 way deal had them getting Cordero and Adam Jones. I'd love for the Sox to do a similar deal.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 09:42 PM
You better dump Wang then regardless of the GB/FB. Just imagine how many more chances he gives the infield to committ an error over a guy with even an average K/9 rate.
They are all important. K/9, K/BB (more important), and G/F.
I really don't get the big obsession with K/9. Just give me results. A weak flyball, soft liner, double play grounder to short, strikeout on three curveballs in the dirt, or a 10 pitch at-bat that ends with a strikeout with a 98MPH fastball. Who cares?
The obsession with it is that there have been hardly any pitchers in the history of MLB to have continued success with below avergae K/9's. That's it. And yeah, give me all that stuff too - at the time that it happens, it's just as good. But for future success, other things have to be looked at and one of them is K/9.
If the White Sox offered Javy Vazquez or Mark Buehrle for the same package the Yankees were offering, everybody who supports the K/9 emphasis will take Vazquez. They have to otherwise he/she is a hypocrite. Vazquez has a much more impressive K/9, and he was actually pretty good with the HR ball last season, better than Buehrle.
How many of you would take Vazquez over Buehrle?
Well it's not that simple. Last year Vazquez was better than Buehrle. Buehrle, for his career, doesn't get the amount of strikeouts as Vazquez does, but he walks less and gets more groundballs. All those things have to be taken into account.
By the way, I do think Vazquez will be better next year for the Sox than he was last year... JMO though.
Metroidman
12-05-06, 09:42 PM
I wonder how bad the Sox will be screwed when the Market crashes
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 09:42 PM
That's not a fair question because we already had Vazquez and he was pathetic. A neutral party might say Vazquez, might say Buehrle.
That was my point. How did all those K/9's work out for you guys? He isn't a smart pitcher and is mentally weak.
How exactly can some of you form such a strong viewpoint on a player using one statistic without seeing him pitch? Even if a guy has one negative, I'll still take him if the positives outweigh the negatives (if strikeouts are your thing.) I have already shown he is better than the league average in more important stats like K/BB, BB/9, WHIP, and ERA.
Fine, I'll change the question. Who is the better pitcher; Vazquez or Buehrle?
bambam51
12-05-06, 09:43 PM
The rumored 3 way deal had them getting Cordero and Adam Jones. I'd love for the Sox to do a similar deal.
I'm worried about an Elbert/Broxton type deal from the Dodgers.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 09:46 PM
That was my point. How did all those K/9's work out for you guys? He isn't a smart pitcher and is mentally weak.
Vazquez didn't strike many guys out with the Yankees. His K/9 was 6.82 that year, and he walked too many. Not great for a flyball pitcher.
How exactly can some of you form such a strong viewpoint on a player using one statistic without seeing him pitch? Even if a guy has one negative, I'll still take him if the positives outweigh the negatives (if strikeouts are your thing.) I have already shown he is better than the league average in more important stats like K/BB, BB/9, WHIP, and ERA.
You are obviously asking me here. K/9 is just one of many stats, and is an important one. K/BB is more important though. G/F is also very important... I've said that the whole time. They all have to be added to the equation. But every pitcher would be better off striking out a batter rather than not. No different for Buehrle.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 09:50 PM
...
www.thebaseballcube.com (http://www.thebaseballcube.com) gives those.
(Although I just read somewhere hear that the White Sox are very interested in Sanchez and we don't want to give him up).
.
Thanks for the site. I'll add to the list.
Yeah, I saw that rumor about Sanchez/Buehrle. I have a hard time buying that Cash turned down a straight Sanchez for Buehrle deal. I know the kid has immense talent but he's also had a hard time staying healthy and even in the best of circumstances, pitchers at that age are a crapshoot.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:50 PM
That was my point. How did all those K/9's work out for you guys? He isn't a smart pitcher and is mentally weak.
I reeeeally don't want to be involved this discussion (and wish it had its own thread) but how can you cite all these stats and then just say about Vazquez "he isn't a smart pitcher and is mentally weak"? You've been backing yourself up all along and then just use unquantifiable measures.
CallOfTheCrow
12-05-06, 09:54 PM
I still say Manny isn't going anywhere.
bambam51
12-05-06, 09:59 PM
I still say Manny isn't going anywhere.
Then what about the trade that, according to Bowden, will 'shock the baseball world'?
Spiker101
12-05-06, 10:05 PM
Then what about the trade that, according to Bowden, will 'shock the baseball world'?
Bowden will be forever remembered as the guy who DIDN'T trade Aflonso Soriano at the deadline, knowing there was no way they could re-sign. He's not the most astute man in the world.
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 10:06 PM
I reeeeally don't want to be involved this discussion (and wish it had its own thread) but how can you cite all these stats and then just say about Vazquez "he isn't a smart pitcher and is mentally weak"? You've been backing yourself up all along and then just use unquantifiable measures.
Was Vazquez "not a smart pitcher and mentally weak" in Montreal when he put up a dominant season? It seems to me he just regressed, these things happen.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 10:09 PM
Bowden will be forever remembered as the guy who DIDN'T trade Aflonso Soriano at the deadline, knowing there was no way they could re-sign. He's not the most astute man in the world.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/NYET76804182123_sp.jpeg
Roberto Kelly
12-05-06, 10:34 PM
Thanks, amico mio.
Sign him AND Andy. :)
Do you think that could happen? I love Buehrle and Pettitte, but I think the rotation would be too left-centric if we take them both on. Do you think that would be a problem? (Beyond the obvious problem of too many guys for the five spots).
BxBomber44
12-05-06, 10:36 PM
Let's see, 51 million for Matsuzaka + another 30 mil at least + 70 mil for Drew + 32 mil for Lugo.
Yup, they have a deal lined up for Manny for sure. They're getting a closer. Either Shields or Cordero.
I would be scared of the angels if they only gave up shields for manny. Painfully frightened of ever playing them.
I hope manny goes to to the dodgers for Looney and one of their solid young arms. (Broxton)- Their closer of the future...
ryanm1058123
12-05-06, 10:45 PM
if shields goes to the red sox the yankees will never win the AL East again
Spiker101
12-05-06, 11:01 PM
if shields goes to the red sox the yankees will never win the AL East again
If Shields went to the Sox, and had to face teh Yanks 19 games a year, I guarantee they'd finally learn how to hit him.
NYDCYankee
12-05-06, 11:03 PM
If Shields went to the Sox, and had to face teh Yanks 19 games a year, I guarantee they'd finally learn how to hit him.
The Yankees have beat Shields a couple times in the past two years.
ryanm1058123
12-05-06, 11:21 PM
Where have they touched him? They've hit him in blowout games. Remember last year when it was like 7-3 and Nick Green was up after Fasano hit a double and they took out Saunders? What did Shields end up doing? Yup.. he even got one of Saunder's outs. Yeah.. he gave up a garbage time HR to a couple Yankees but in a big situation they have yet to hit him
and in the ALDS in 2005 they hit like 2 singles and they got a lucky dribbler down the line that was a close play at home. not exactly hitting the guy
Where have they touched him? They've hit him in blowout games. Remember last year when it was like 7-3 and Nick Green was up after Fasano hit a double and they took out Saunders? What did Shields end up doing? Yup.. he even got one of Saunder's outs. Yeah.. he gave up a garbage time HR to a couple Yankees but in a big situation they have yet to hit him
and in the ALDS in 2005 they hit like 2 singles and they got a lucky dribbler down the line that was a close play at home. not exactly hitting the guy
He has pitched a mere 24.1 innings against them from 2004-06. If they saw him 18 games a year, as has been pointed out, they would adjust.
JohnnyEllis
12-05-06, 11:33 PM
Where have they touched him? They've hit him in blowout games. Remember last year when it was like 7-3 and Nick Green was up after Fasano hit a double and they took out Saunders? What did Shields end up doing? Yup.. he even got one of Saunder's outs. Yeah.. he gave up a garbage time HR to a couple Yankees but in a big situation they have yet to hit him
and in the ALDS in 2005 they hit like 2 singles and they got a lucky dribbler down the line that was a close play at home. not exactly hitting the guy
A-Rod kills him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?playerId=4722&teamId=10
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 11:33 PM
I'd much rather deal with Shields then Manny. In fact, I'd rather deal with like 3 Shields then one Manny...
sweet_lou_14
12-05-06, 11:47 PM
I'd much rather deal with Shields then Manny. In fact, I'd rather deal with like 3 Shields then one Manny...
When you factor in the fact that no Manny means you barely have to deal with Ortiz, make that 6 Shields.
Mr. Smith
12-06-06, 12:17 AM
if shields goes to the red sox the yankees will never win the AL East again
:-rofl-: ... Ohhh thanks. I needed that.
AndThenThereWasTino
12-06-06, 12:42 AM
if shields goes to the red sox the yankees will never win the AL East again
uuuhhhhh... :thatsodd: :-whistle-
Jerkface
12-06-06, 01:31 AM
if shields goes to the red sox the yankees will never win the AL East again
Crap! We'll be held possibly scoreless for 1-2 innings every other game!!
Too bad he'll never get a chance to come in as the Bronx Bombers lay the wood to a stretched out Papelbon and batting practice Beckett. All the while Igawa will be throwing no hitters because Cashman won't let him wait in line for his wiiiwii.
NYDCYankee
12-06-06, 01:54 AM
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1165388186187490.xml&coll=1
ABCBaseball
12-06-06, 01:57 AM
I really hope they don't give Lilly 40 million... I'd rather go from within then settle for overpaying mediocre pitchers...
Matsui-San
12-06-06, 03:05 AM
I really hope they don't give Lilly 40 million... I'd rather go from within then settle for overpaying mediocre pitchers...
Agreed.
NYDCYankee
12-06-06, 03:27 AM
Richie Sexson?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062006/sports/yankees/sexson_might_be_1st_option_yankees_george_king.htm
NYDCYankee
12-06-06, 03:29 AM
Yanx asked Giambi to waive no trade
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062006/sports/yankees/no_waiving_goodbye_for_alex__jason_yankees_.htm
When you factor in the fact that no Manny means you barely have to deal with Ortiz, make that 6 Shields.
Here are a couple of guys who get it. Taking Manny out of that lineup reduces Ortiz to an almost insignificant factor, and you remove a guy who always kills us. Last year to the tune of .545, with 9 HRs, and a slugging percentage in teh .700 range.
Metroidman
12-06-06, 06:31 AM
If we sign Lilly at 4/40 I'm gonna bang my head against a wall till next seasons' over
First off, I would absolutely love if Shields was the main product going back to the Sox for Manny. Love it. There are a dozen or so- at least- pitchers who would be as good or better than Shields as a closer, while there are only a very select few players that can produce like Manny.
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 06:54 AM
Here are a couple of guys who get it. Taking Manny out of that lineup reduces Ortiz to an almost insignificant factor, and you remove a guy who always kills us. Last year to the tune of .545, with 9 HRs, and a slugging percentage in teh .700 range.
Ortiz would still be a factor, but he'd be able to be walked in "Close and Late" situations, which would be nice.
Matsui55
12-06-06, 06:58 AM
Yanx asked Giambi to waive no trade
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062006/sports/yankees/no_waiving_goodbye_for_alex__jason_yankees_.htm
He said no, but at least they asked and considered it.
They really should have approached him with an offer first rather than just asking him to waive it. He really should be dealt.
Matsui55
12-06-06, 07:02 AM
if shields goes to the red sox the yankees will never win the AL East again
RIIIGHHTTT- and next you will tell us that if the Red Sox get Villone, the Yanks will finish in 3rd.
Get real, Shields arem is ready to fall off- and that is why the Angels are shopping him (despite their claims that they are keeping him). They know the short shelf life of relievers, and want to get something for him before he fades.
What is more telling is that they plunked down $20M for an other reliever to be their set-up guy- or to fill Shields role. If there's nothing wrong with him, or he is so good, why would they do that?
noneckwilliams
12-06-06, 07:08 AM
Yanx asked Giambi to waive no trade
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062006/sports/yankees/no_waiving_goodbye_for_alex__jason_yankees_.htm
From Sherman
In their new fervor to reduce payroll, increase roster flexibility and get younger and more athletic
From King
Agent Scott Boras and GM Brian Cashman plan to talk today about Bernie Williams' future. While Boras said he hasn't had a conversation with Williams about playing for another team, the agent has talked to clubs about their outfield needs and what they are doing.
Younger and more athletic indeed.
RIIIGHHTTT- and next you will tell us that if the Red Sox get Villone, the Yanks will finish in 3rd.
Get real, Shields arem is ready to fall off- and that is why the Angels are shopping him (despite their claims that they are keeping him). They know the short shelf life of relievers, and want to get something for him before he fades.
What is more telling is that they plunked down $20M for an other reliever to be their set-up guy- or to fill Shields role. If there's nothing wrong with him, or he is so good, why would they do that?
I agree with you on these points, although I'm not sure the Angels are that deft. I think they like Shields, but would obviously deal him if they got value back.
They did just give a mediocre player a ton of money. I think a much worse deal than the Soriano and Lee deals- at least you know you are overpaying for good players there. With Mathews, you are severely overpaying for a mediocre player.
RIIIGHHTTT- and next you will tell us that if the Red Sox get Villone, the Yanks will finish in 3rd.
Get real, Shields arem is ready to fall off- and that is why the Angels are shopping him (despite their claims that they are keeping him). They know the short shelf life of relievers, and want to get something for him before he fades.
What is more telling is that they plunked down $20M for an other reliever to be their set-up guy- or to fill Shields role. If there's nothing wrong with him, or he is so good, why would they do that?
You are talking about the 4 year 18+ million deal for Spiers, I assume? Or is there another signing that I missed?
shotgun_sam
12-06-06, 07:25 AM
Do you think that could happen? I love Buehrle and Pettitte, but I think the rotation would be too left-centric if we take them both on. Do you think that would be a problem? (Beyond the obvious problem of too many guys for the five spots).
I beleive the second rule after "you can never have too much pitching" is "you can never have too many lefties". ;)
bostonyankeefan
12-06-06, 07:33 AM
I beleive the second rule after "you can never have too much pitching" is "you can never have too many lefties". ;)
Never, ever. All of our starters have had injury issues. I would love to go into Spring Training with 7 or 8 starters. Who knows how the Big Unit will respond to the surgery? Will we get anything out of Pavano? Will Moose stay healthy all year?
Until Phil Hughes and some of the other young guns are ready to perform and the major league level, I want an overabundance of pitching, and I don't think that there is such a thing as too many lefties, except perhaps for a 5 game set at Fenway.
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 08:09 AM
This was a good article from madden this morning regarding #46
According to Hendricks, the family considerations that prompted Pettitte to sever ties with the Yankees after nine distinguished seasons in New York are no longer a factor in his needing to pitch in Houston.
"Especially if you're talking about a one-year deal," the agent said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/477608p-401829c.html
I love this quotes about DL Drew:
No word on when the Red Sox will ask to switch to another division since they clearly cannot compete financially with the Yankees. Perhaps bargain-basement pickups like J.D. Drew and Julio Lugo will work out for them.
In what is good news for the Yankees, the Red Sox have signed conscientious objector J.D. Drew. All you need know is that his teammates in Los Angeles called him "Nancy Drew" behind his back.
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html
ryanm1058123
12-06-06, 10:37 AM
yankees will not figure out how to hit scot shields. Mike Timlin still owns Jeter for his career. as well as other players on the team. he'd be absolutely automatic against us like always. the "we'd never win the AL East" was a little bit of overreacting but he'd definitely own us
This was a good article from madden this morning regarding #46
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/477608p-401829c.html
I love this quotes about DL Drew:
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html
I can hear the "Nancy" chants in NY already!! :D :D
noneckwilliams
12-06-06, 11:07 AM
yankees will not figure out how to hit scot shields. Mike Timlin still owns Jeter for his career. as well as other players on the team. he'd be absolutely automatic against us like always. the "we'd never win the AL East" was a little bit of overreacting but he'd definitely own us
If they deal Manny for Sheilds + I'll be ecstatic.
ryanm1058123
12-06-06, 11:09 AM
If they deal Manny for Sheilds + I'll be ecstatic.
as would I.. still not saying I'd love to see Shields for 19+ times a year
GrouchoNYY
12-06-06, 11:12 AM
as would I.. still not saying I'd love to see Shields for 19+ times a year
One warning thought-- Shields has not been a closer. Until he does it successfully on a regular basis, the jury will remain out.
WeekendWarrior
12-06-06, 11:18 AM
If you take manny's bat out of that line-up it really hurts the sox because they have no one protecting Ortiz. Even if they got Joe Nathan in return, it is not going to match manny's value.
nyyanksfan20
12-06-06, 11:20 AM
This was a good article from madden this morning regarding #46
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/477608p-401829c.html
I love this quotes about DL Drew:
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html
LOL! That's great.
CallOfTheCrow
12-06-06, 11:24 AM
Id rather see Shields 19+ times a year then Manny 4-5 times a game for a whole weekend.
destiNY
12-06-06, 11:42 AM
yankees will not figure out how to hit scot shields. Mike Timlin still owns Jeter for his career. as well as other players on the team. he'd be absolutely automatic against us like always. the "we'd never win the AL East" was a little bit of overreacting but he'd definitely own us
This whole shields owning us is so old, last year we owned him.
Splits against us last year:
IP 9.2
ER 5
BB 5
SO 9
ERA 5.19
aeromac76
12-06-06, 11:42 AM
If we assumed Shields would never even give up a single hit to the Yankees next year, then I still make that deal.
Shields would become the closer in Boston. Which means we'd never see him in games we lead in for the most part. Extra innings, maybe and save situations.
How many extra inning/save situations of the 19 times we play them come in into play on their side? 7 or 8 times at most??
Probably not even that many. I don't recall seeing Papelbon 8x this year..
But Manny tortures us every game, with every at bat, and makes it imperative we pitch to Papi. Without him, we'd never have to worry about him, instead JD Drew, who I fear as much as the chocolate syrup in my cabinet, take his place. Ortiz still terrifies me, but now instead of having to wade through the mine field of Papi and pray we don't find our ship getting sunk, we could simply sail around it...
ryanm1058123
12-06-06, 11:42 AM
This whole shields owning us is so old, last year we owned him.
Splits against us last year:
IP 9.2
ER 5
BB 5
SO 9
ERA 5.19
how many of those runs were in pressure situations? (ie not blowouts)
destiNY
12-06-06, 11:43 AM
if angels get manny, the whole angels owning the yankees is going to reach new levels
This whole shields owning us is so old, last year we owned him.
Splits against us last year:
IP 9.2
ER 5
BB 5
SO 9
ERA 5.19
Thanks!
destiNY
12-06-06, 11:44 AM
how many of those runs were in pressure situations? (ie not blowouts)
Not sure...do you know the answer ?
While I haven't seen Bonds yet, I did see Yankees pitching prospect Humberto Sanchez—who was acquired in the Gary Sheffield trade last month—strolling through the lobby Tuesday night. I thought his presence here was a little odd at the time and my interest was really piqued when reports surfaced that the Yankees might be shopping him to the White Sox for a veteran starter. Coincidence? Perhaps, because if New York is truly making headway with Andy Pettitte they no longer really need rotation help.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=151&articleid=27286
ryanm1058123
12-06-06, 11:46 AM
Not sure...do you know the answer ?
i know we scored at least 2-3 of those runs against him in a blowout in a game where a-rod and somebody else hit HRs off of him
destiNY
12-06-06, 11:47 AM
i know we scored at least 2-3 of those runs against him in a blowout in a game where a-rod and somebody else hit HRs off of him
I seem to remember that, the 5 BB is pretty bad as well though
CallOfTheCrow
12-06-06, 11:49 AM
I thought Cashman rejected offers from the Sox about Sanchez?
MTYankee23
12-06-06, 11:57 AM
3 times he allowed runs. It looks like all came with 4 run leads. But if you're turning a 4 run lead into a 2 run lead, that's still pretty significant. We're not talking about a 10-1 game or anything like that.
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 12:14 PM
if angels get manny, the whole angels owning the yankees is going to reach new levels
that would suck.
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 12:19 PM
Sorry if I'm late on this...I would have liked to send him back to Oakland (and I think they would've taken him as their DH).
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062006/sports/yankees/no_waiving_goodbye_for_alex__jason_yankees_.htm?page=0
The Yanks also put out feelers to Jason Giambi's camp to see if the slugger was willing to be moved, a person familiar with the Yankees operations told The Post. However, as with A-Rod, the Yanks were told Giambi has no desire to waive his no-trade provision because he wants to stay and win in New York.
...
As for Giambi, the Yanks saw where the market was soaring and realized - like the Red Sox with Manny Ramirez - that Giambi's contract was no longer outrageous in this environment. He has two years at $47 million left or three at $63 million if his option were picked up.
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 12:20 PM
how many of those runs were in pressure situations? (ie not blowouts)
Do you think Shields would be dominant against the Yankees if they got to see him 19 games a year?
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 12:21 PM
if angels get manny, the whole angels owning the yankees is going to reach new levels
I'll take it, the Sox won't be as good.
Sorry if I'm late on this...I would have liked to send him back to Oakland (and I think they would've taken him as their DH).
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062006/sports/yankees/no_waiving_goodbye_for_alex__jason_yankees_.htm?page=0
No matter how much it hurts our trade leverage or whatever, you have to like it when guys refuse to let themselves be shipped out of New York because they want to stay here and win here
NYDCYankee
12-06-06, 12:28 PM
I thought Cashman rejected offers from the Sox about Sanchez?
If the Yankees trade Sanchez they better get better than the WS starters. Harden comes to mind.
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 12:32 PM
If the Yankees trade Sanchez they better get better than the WS starters. Harden comes to mind.
Even with his back issues?
ARoDfan4life
12-06-06, 12:34 PM
Ok. The NYM are said to be making a package of Miledge, Heilman and Oliver Perez to Oak for Rich Harden ...
my question is would Billy Boy turn around and trade Oliver Perez to NYY if so for what ? possibly Igawa would anyone of you cosider that ?
Spiker101
12-06-06, 12:34 PM
I thought Cashman rejected offers from the Sox about Sanchez?
There was a report that he turned down a Buehrle for Sanchez deal. That report isn't credible in my opinion, unless Cashman has taken leave of his senses.
Ok. The NYM are said to be making a package of Miledge, Heilman and Oliver Perez to Oak for Rich Harden ...
my question is would Billy Boy turn around and trade Oliver Perez to NYY if so for what ? possibly Igawa would anyone of you cosider that ?
The A's have no reason to consider that. Why give up a young high upside hard- throwing lefty for a soft- tosing older lefty who has never pitched in the majors????
ARoDfan4life
12-06-06, 12:39 PM
The A's have no reason to consider that. Why give up a young high upside hard- throwing lefty for a soft- tosing older lefty who has never pitched in the majors????
they were one of the teams that bid on Igawa ... this could be possible
they were one of the teams that bid on Igawa ... this could be possible
we don't even have Igawa signed yet, so we'll pay the posting fee and then ship him off to the A's?
This makes zero sense
thegift711
12-06-06, 12:40 PM
Might Schmidt to the Dodgers make Penny more available?
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 12:41 PM
Might Schmidt to the Dodgers make Penny more available?
Yes, in the Sox thread there is an article linked stating they are more likely to flip Penny for a bat.
surge511
12-06-06, 12:41 PM
Why would we want Oliver Perez? I don't want to see him in the NY rotation.
NYDCYankee
12-06-06, 12:42 PM
Even with his back issues?
I would rather take my chances with that then with the medicore White Sox pitchers.
FormerlyKnownAsMHHL
12-06-06, 12:43 PM
ESPN has this in their rumor section now:
Dec 6 - Richie Sexson might be an option at first base for the Yankees, The New York Post reports. While the Yankees aren't going to give up Chien-Ming Wang or Phil Hughes for Sexson, a package headed by Melky Cabrera could entice the Mariners if they are willing to eat some of Sexson's money. If they don't pay part of the money, they can't expect much back.
ARoDfan4life
12-06-06, 12:44 PM
Why would we want Oliver Perez? I don't want to see him in the NY rotation.
you don't want that arm being coached by Ron Guidry ? the slider, the adaption to his speed , his youth as a possible # 4 or 5 pitcher ?
you don't want that arm being coached by Ron Guidry ? the slider, the adaption to his speed , his youth as a possible # 4 or 5 pitcher ?
Since when has Ron Guidry been a great pitching coach?
And no, I don't want the Yanks sending $26 million to Japan just to facilitate Oakland sending us a young lefty with serious, serious problems.
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 12:47 PM
I would rather take my chances with that then with the medicore White Sox pitchers.
If thats the choice, between the WhiteSox & A's I go with harden.
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 12:47 PM
Damon
Jeter
Abreu
ARod
Giambi
Sexson
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Not bad.
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 12:50 PM
ESPN has this in their rumor section now:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Dec 6 - Richie Sexson might be an option at first base for the Yankees, The New York Post reports. While the Yankees aren't going to give up Chien-Ming Wang or Phil Hughes for Sexson, a package headed by Melky Cabrera could entice the Mariners if they are willing to eat some of Sexson's money. If they don't pay part of the money, they can't expect much back. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
This was in todays paper, ESPN is just reporting it now? That trade sucks. ESPN should be pumping up how great Nancy Drew is going to be next year and what a great signing it was, and how the Sox are spending their money wisely.
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Dec 6 - Richie Sexson might be an option at first base for the Yankees, The New York Post reports. While the Yankees aren't going to give up Chien-Ming Wang or Phil Hughes for Sexson, a package headed by Melky Cabrera could entice the Mariners if they are willing to eat some of Sexson's money. If they don't pay part of the money, they can't expect much back. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
This was in todays paper, ESPN is just reporting it now? That trade sucks. ESPN should be pumping up how great Nancy Drew is going to be next year and what a great signing it was, and how the Sox are spending their money wisely.
I would send Melky and a filler prospect over to Seattle for Sexson and part of his salary in a hot second
Melky is valuable, most definitely. But he doesn't really fit our needs right now as much as Sexson would, which is the definition of a good trade for both teams. It wouldn't be a massive steal on either of our parts, just mutually beneficial
cmaff05
12-06-06, 01:04 PM
What's the difference between Adam Jones and Melky Cabrera? The Seattle already has a light hitting centerfielder, why do they need another one. :dunno:
I heard on WFAN that the Braves are looking to trade Hudson and they are looking for relief help.
What about Farnsworth for Hudson?
Also, I heard on the FAN is that Cleveland is looking for relief help.
What's the difference between Adam Jones and Melky Cabrera? The Seattle already has a light hitting centerfielder, why do they need another one. :dunno:
Because their CF doesn't know how to take a walk.
What's the difference between Adam Jones and Melky Cabrera? The Seattle already has a light hitting centerfielder, why do they need another one. :dunno:
I didn't invent the trade rumor, I just want it to happen. As of now, we have no idea what Seattle's position on the deal is other than that "it could entice them" which means nothing
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 01:06 PM
I would send Melky and a filler prospect over to Seattle for Sexson and part of his salary in a hot second
Melky is valuable, most definitely. But he doesn't really fit our needs right now as much as Sexson would, which is the definition of a good trade for both teams. It wouldn't be a massive steal on either of our parts, just mutually beneficial
You want to take on another contract(if Seattle doesnt eat any) for a 1b and assuming Abreu goes after 2007 who plays RF?
Also, I heard on the FAN is that Cleveland is looking for relief help.
Proctor for Garko, please.
deadrody
12-06-06, 01:07 PM
Jesus, like a bunch of Pirahnnas in a pool of blood. Vicious we are...
Do you blame them ? I think the hostility is all due to the repeated nightmare we all have - Cashman's alarm clock doesn't go off one day and while he sleeps the Tampa mafia takes over, signs Zito for $120 Mil and trades A-Rod for Creded and Garland just as proposed. It's like the 80s all over again.
AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
{wakes up screaming}
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-06-06, 01:07 PM
I heard on WFAN that the Braves are looking to trade Hudson and they are looking for relief help.
What about Farnsworth for Hudson?
Also, I heard on the FAN is that Cleveland is looking for relief help.
If Proctor or Farnsworth alone could net Hudson, Cashman would do it in a heartbeat....
So you want to take on another contract(if Seattle doesnt eat any) for a 1b and assuming Abreu goes after 2007 who plays RF?
It said Seattle would eat some of his deal for this trade to happen, so I don't know why you would evaluate it otherwise. In any case, he's only signed for 2 more years so its not like its some huge contract
If Abreu goes after 2007, it will probably be because we let him go because we had a better option, and in any case, thats a silly thing to worry about. So many things can happen between now and then (trades, free agents next year, etc)
CyYoung4Vazquez
12-06-06, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't mind Sexon. He's a decent fielder. Also hit 3 HR's against the Yankees last year. Actually I saw him hit a moonshot at the stadium
aeromac76
12-06-06, 01:09 PM
Damon
Jeter
Abreu
ARod
Giambi
Sexson
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Not bad.
Sexson K's ALOT. He is not going to be, IMO, the type of hitter you want up there in a key spot against touch postseason pitching. If he runs into it he can hit it to the moon, but I think Richie is the RH version of Adam Dunn..
I would not want to deal Melky for him.. I just don't think he is that good. He has power, but that is about his only quality as a hitter I like..
noneckwilliams
12-06-06, 01:11 PM
Might Schmidt to the Dodgers make Penny more available?
For the RS in a Manny deal.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-06-06, 01:11 PM
Sexson K's ALOT. He is not going to be, IMO, the type of hitter you want up there in a key spot against touch postseason pitching. If he runs into it he can hit it to the moon, but I think Richie is the RH version of Adam Dunn..
I would not want to deal Melky for him.. I just don't think he is that good. He has power, but that is about his only quality as a hitter I like..
Sexson doesn't really get on base near as much as Dunn does...
Sexson K's ALOT. He is not going to be, IMO, the type of hitter you want up there in a key spot against touch postseason pitching. If he runs into it he can hit it to the moon, but I think Richie is the RH version of Adam Dunn..
I would not want to deal Melky for him.. I just don't think he is that good. He has power, but that is about his only quality as a hitter I like..
Just because a hitter is solely a power hitter instead of a contact hitter doesn't mean anything about how he will perform against tough postseason pitching. Not everyone has to be the great David Eckstein. For example, Craig Monroe last year had a great postseason, and he's pretty similar offensively to Sexson
Yanks Lifer
12-06-06, 01:32 PM
I heard on WFAN that the Braves are looking to trade Hudson and they are looking for relief help.
What about Farnsworth for Hudson?
Also, I heard on the FAN is that Cleveland is looking for relief help.
I think Cleveland just signed Borowski.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-06-06, 01:39 PM
So far, Wang has been an exception to the rule. Will this hold up for several years, we aren't sure and it has been discussed here at length.
An out is an out, but when your K/9 is at a level where only a few pitchers in the entire history of major league baseball have been able to have sustained success, I think it is something that has to be looked at.
Beuhrle has been an exception for 4 years. He has one year with a 6 or higher k/9. He has 5 good seasons out of 6. If anything he has proven more to be an exception than Wang.(And im not knocking Wang, I think he is very unique in that yeah you can make contact but its always the weak contact that will be fielded successfully)
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-06-06, 01:43 PM
If we can't get Pettitte, I think Buerhle is a fine back up plan...
Haywood2K6
12-06-06, 01:50 PM
2:37 p.m., from Jerry Crasnick
• Ted Lilly still isn't sure where he'll be pitching in 2007. But it won't be in Toronto. Lilly crossed the Blue Jays off his list Wednesday and has narrowed his possible destinations to the Cubs and Yankees, his agent, Larry O'Brien, told ESPN.com at the winter meetings. O'Brien, who is seeking a four-year, $40 million deal, plans to meet with Yankees GM Brian Cashman on Wednesday night. If the Yankees fail to make a strong enough pitch, it would clear the way for Lilly to sign with Chicago.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/news/story?id=2688380
grtwhtsk
12-06-06, 01:51 PM
No way should we trade Sanchez for anything less than a "sure thing."
2:37 p.m., from Jerry Crasnick
• Ted Lilly still isn't sure where he'll be pitching in 2007. But it won't be in Toronto. Lilly crossed the Blue Jays off his list Wednesday and has narrowed his possible destinations to the Cubs and Yankees, his agent, Larry O'Brien, told ESPN.com at the winter meetings. O'Brien, who is seeking a four-year, $40 million deal, plans to meet with Yankees GM Brian Cashman on Wednesday night. If the Yankees fail to make a strong enough pitch, it would clear the way for Lilly to sign with Chicago.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/news/story?id=2688380
So we sign Zito and/or Andy by Wednesday, then.
CallOfTheCrow
12-06-06, 01:52 PM
we don't even have any strong interest in Zito, unless Ca$hman is a master of covert ops......
ring403
12-06-06, 01:53 PM
2:37 p.m., from Jerry Crasnick
• Ted Lilly still isn't sure where he'll be pitching in 2007. But it won't be in Toronto. Lilly crossed the Blue Jays off his list Wednesday and has narrowed his possible destinations to the Cubs and Yankees, his agent, Larry O'Brien, told ESPN.com at the winter meetings. O'Brien, who is seeking a four-year, $40 million deal, plans to meet with Yankees GM Brian Cashman on Wednesday night. If the Yankees fail to make a strong enough pitch, it would clear the way for Lilly to sign with Chicago.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/news/story?id=2688380 Don't hold your breath waiting for the Yankees to match 4 years/$40 million, Ted. Not happening.
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 01:53 PM
Beuhrle has been an exception for 4 years. He has one year with a 6 or higher k/9. He has 5 good seasons out of 6. If anything he has proven more to be an exception than Wang.(And im not knocking Wang, I think he is very unique in that yeah you can make contact but its always the weak contact that will be fielded successfully)
Agreed, but last year his K rate was even lower than it normally is.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-06-06, 01:54 PM
So we sign Zito and/or Andy by Wednesday, then.
Do you want the Yankees to sign Zito? ;)
Posada_20
12-06-06, 01:54 PM
I'd be in favor of signing Lilly and Pettite. This would enable the Yanks to take their time with Hughes and Sanchez, letting them get possibly a full season in Triple A. Randy will be gone after this coming season, and Pettite will likely only require 1 year, maybe 2. Also, if Pavano shows he is healthy, maybe we can finally trade him.
JeffWeaverFan
12-06-06, 01:55 PM
ESPN has this in their rumor section now:
That was just King speculating.
JeffWeaverFan
12-06-06, 01:55 PM
2:37 p.m., from Jerry Crasnick
• Ted Lilly still isn't sure where he'll be pitching in 2007. But it won't be in Toronto. Lilly crossed the Blue Jays off his list Wednesday and has narrowed his possible destinations to the Cubs and Yankees, his agent, Larry O'Brien, told ESPN.com at the winter meetings. O'Brien, who is seeking a four-year, $40 million deal, plans to meet with Yankees GM Brian Cashman on Wednesday night. If the Yankees fail to make a strong enough pitch, it would clear the way for Lilly to sign with Chicago.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/news/story?id=2688380
I really don't want Lilly...
deadrody
12-06-06, 01:56 PM
Actually, Buehrle is Jimmy Key. Key's career ERA+ is 122. Buehrle's is 121.
Now tell me you wouldn't trade Melky and Proctor for Jimmy Key. And I'll tell you to pass the Kool Aid.
Come on. At least be honest. The guy is 27. Jimmy Key put up a career ERA+ of 122 over 15 years, his last coming at age 37. WHEN Buehrle continues to put up the numbers he has for another decade, THEN we can talk about if he is comparable to Jimmy Key.
I am concerned about the big drop in strikeouts, but he is just 27, so it might be worth it. The thing is, are we looking for someong to stick around for 5 years, or to bridge the gap between here and Hughes, Sanches, et al ?
Frankly I like Melky more than that. The kid is only 21. Unless you absolutely MUST have an all star at every position, Melky could easily handle LF for the Yankees for the next 5 years, minimum. Neither Matsui or Damon are going to be here in even 3 years, most likely.
Proctor ? Eh. His arm is as likely to fall off in the next year or two as he is to pitch 2 quality seasons.
Haywood2K6
12-06-06, 01:57 PM
Don't hold your breath waiting for the Yankees to match 4 years/$40 million, Ted. Not happening.
Ted really wants to grind an extra 5 million out of the Cubs, they are bidding against themselves and he's just using the Yankees to boost the price, if Cashman ever considered giving Lilly 10 mill.. wow.
CallOfTheCrow
12-06-06, 01:59 PM
Ted really wants to grind an extra 5 million out of the Cubs, they are bidding against themselves and he's just using the Yankees to boost the price, if Cashman ever considered giving Lilly 10 mill.. wow.
I'd call for his immediate termination.
As GM of course, nothing violent.:P
I want NOTHING to do with Ted Lilly at $40 mil/4
ring403
12-06-06, 02:01 PM
Ted really wants to grind an extra 5 million out of the Cubs, they are bidding against themselves and he's just using the Yankees to boost the priceThat's okay. The Yankees are just using Ted to pressure Pettitte into making a decision, so we're even.
GrouchoNYY
12-06-06, 02:03 PM
Ted really wants to grind an extra 5 million out of the Cubs, they are bidding against themselves and he's just using the Yankees to boost the price, if Cashman ever considered giving Lilly 10 mill.. wow.
=======
Lilly never wanted to traded away. He wants to pitch for the Yankees. He has a sure offer from the Cubs but is holding out hope of coming here. I doubt if he's holding the Cubs up for more mone. Of course, if the Cubs offer more, so be it.
That's okay. The Yankees are just using Ted to pressure Pettitte into making a decision, so we're even.
:lol:
Nice:D
deadrody
12-06-06, 02:14 PM
I'm a believer that a pitchcer needs to strike out a certain amount of batters to have success in this league, so seing Buehrle going down like he did puts up red flags. But yes, after this lengthy discussion, we, for the most part, agree on a number of things. Hell, I don't think we really disagreed on much to start off with with this argument.
It's not so much the "number" of strikeouts. Strikeouts are indicative of a pitcher that makes hitters miss. And even if they don't miss, they are more likely to just make contact against a pitcher with strikeout stuff than someone with lesser stuff. Essentially, the margin for error is greater with a pitcher that strikes guys out. Wang is simply a special case, a guy with a wicked sinker that hitters don't miss, but consistently beat into the ground. Whether or not that continues and for how long has to be somewhat of a concern. But for now, he is getting it done.
Maybe Buerhle is the next Jimmy Key or Tom Glavine. Maybe not. I certainly wouldn't put money on it I agree with whoever else suggested watching him this year and signing him next year if he rebounds.
Metroidman
12-06-06, 02:17 PM
Ok so its gonna be
Lugo
Crisp
Ortiz
LOL Ortiz will have like 50RBI's next season
fredgmuggs
12-06-06, 02:18 PM
That's okay. The Yankees are just using Ted to pressure Pettitte into making a decision, so we're even.
I don't think Pettitte is coming and I believe the Yanks are now looking toward Lilly as an option... but at $10 million per year for 4 years, that seems a little excessive for Ted Lilly. What a crazy market this has turned into, which proves one thing... there is no pitching out there.
Ok so its gonna be
Lugo
Crisp
Ortiz
LOL Ortiz will have like 50RBI's next season
Manny hasn't gone anywhere, and really we havn't even heard of serious discussions taking place.
ring403
12-06-06, 02:34 PM
I don't think Pettitte's coming and I believe the Yanks are now looking toward Lilly as an option... but at $10 million per year for 4 years, that seems a little excessive for Ted Lilly. What a crazy market this has turned into, which proves one thing... there is no pitching out there.I don't buy the Yankees seroius interest in Lilly, not at that kind of money. If Pettitte ends up staying in Houston, I think Cashman would be more inclined to look at trading for a starting pitcher, rather than paying $40 million plus to a number 4 starter.
Roberto Kelly
12-06-06, 02:41 PM
I don't buy the Yankees seroius interest in Lilly, not at that kind of money. If Pettitte ends up staying in Houston, I think Cashman would be more inclined to look at trading for a starting pitcher, rather than paying $40 million plus to a number 4 starter.
Buehrle as the fallback option is palatable to me.
BRNXBMRS
12-06-06, 02:43 PM
I want NOTHING to do with Ted Lilly at $40 mil/4
I'll 2nd that.
Yankees1962
12-06-06, 02:46 PM
This is a major decision time for Cashman. I rather not sign Lilly and go with what we have then commit 40M for four years. I'm also starting to doubt the Pettitte returning rumors.
DaPip1998
12-06-06, 02:48 PM
I don't buy the Yankees seroius interest in Lilly, not at that kind of money. If Pettitte ends up staying in Houston, I think Cashman would be more inclined to look at trading for a starting pitcher, rather than paying $40 million plus to a number 4 starter.
And there's NO need to make such a trade now. We could do much worse than going into the season with a Karstens/Rasner filling the role-something better (cheaper?) may come available later into the year. It's not like the Yankees are going to fall out of the race in June....
Yanks Lifer
12-06-06, 02:52 PM
I'd be in favor of signing Lilly and Pettite. This would enable the Yanks to take their time with Hughes and Sanchez, letting them get possibly a full season in Triple A. Randy will be gone after this coming season, and Pettite will likely only require 1 year, maybe 2. Also, if Pavano shows he is healthy, maybe we can finally trade him.
That could be a possibility. The Yankees have a few more weeks before they would need to sign Igawa. By then Pettitte should have decided and if he chooses the Yanks, they forego signing Igawa having signed Lilly and Pettitte. If Pettitte decides to retire or return to Houston, it's Lilly and Igawa.
ring403
12-06-06, 02:53 PM
Buehrle as the fallback option is palatable to me.If Pettitte doesn't work out, I would hope that Cashman and Ken Williams will be talking again.
As for Lilly, sounds like we'll know soon enough how serious the Yankees are:
http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=839d3e28-74c5-4621-87b2-07cc7959b584
O’Brien said his primary focus now shifts to the Chicago Cubs, who have offered Lilly upwards of US$40 million over the next four years and the New York Yankees, with whom he was scheduled to meet Wednesday afternoon.
“It really just came down to whether Ted wanted a change of scenery and so we decided if it’s between Chicago, New York and Toronto, now it’s going to be between Chicago and New York,” O’Brien said, noting Toronto’s four-year, US$40-million offer was competitive. “And I’ll know later this evening if … New York’s going to be there or not. And if they’re not, then we’re going to probably end up making a decision with Chicago shortly.”
Roberto Kelly
12-06-06, 02:55 PM
If Pettitte doesn't work out, I would hope that Cashman and Ken Williams will be talking again.
As for Lilly, sounds like we'll know soon enough how serious the Yankees are:
http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=839d3e28-74c5-4621-87b2-07cc7959b584
By extension, that should give us an idea as to where we stand w/ Pettitte.
BxBomber44
12-06-06, 02:55 PM
So we sign Zito and/or Andy by Wednesday, then.
Is is realistic for us to get Zito now, the Schmidt goingg to LA?
CanoDropsBombs
12-06-06, 02:56 PM
i dont know where to post this b/c our mods are anti new threads, but i read multiple reports (fox sports net la and espn deportes) that manny has been traded to LAD for penny + 2 prospects.
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 02:56 PM
This is a major decision time for Cashman. I rather not sign Lilly and go with what we have then commit 40M for four years. I'm also starting to doubt the Pettitte returning rumors.
Pavano Flashbak !!!! Yikes:eek:
BxBomber44
12-06-06, 02:57 PM
That could be a possibility. The Yankees have a few more weeks before they would need to sign Igawa. By then Pettitte should have decided and if he chooses the Yanks, they forego signing Igawa having signed Lilly and Pettitte. If Pettitte decides to retire or return to Houston, it's Lilly and Igawa.
Petitte Lilly and RJ would make our lefties to old. I'd rather see Igawa in there instead, but thats just my opinion.
We better not trade Sanchez. He'll probably be ready by ST.
cmaff05
12-06-06, 03:00 PM
i dont know where to post this b/c our mods are anti new threads, but i read multiple reports (fox sports net la and espn deportes) that manny has been traded to LAD for penny + 2 prospects.
links?
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 03:02 PM
links?
Links!!!
donniesrecordholdsup
12-06-06, 03:03 PM
even though i didnt like the igawa signing, at least you can spin it with the bid not counting against the luxury tax, etc. but there is no spinning overpaying for ted lilly. cash takes a huge hit if we sign this guy.
BxBomber44
12-06-06, 03:04 PM
this rotation would be respectable, by all means.
Wang
Pettite
Moose
RJ
Igawa/Pavano/Hughes/Sanchez/
* Only reason Pettite is 2 is to split lefties.
i dont know where to post this b/c our mods are anti new threads,.
Not true. They are anti new duplicate threads. :)
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 03:06 PM
links?
found one
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=508950&page=story
just rumors
BillBuckner
12-06-06, 03:07 PM
found one
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=508950&page=story
just rumors
No hablo espanol.
susieb8020
12-06-06, 03:07 PM
found one
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=508950&page=story
just rumors
I can't read spanish, but i did notice the date was yesterday. As awesome as that news would be, boston.com is refuting it.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/12/no_action_on_ma.html
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 03:10 PM
No hablo espanol.
google is your friend ... but so am I ..
MIAMI -- The Red Averages of Boston and the agents of the stellar Manny gardener Ramirez worked Tuesday laboriously to complete the details of a change that would take to Dominican to the Dodgers of Los Angeles or the Sailors of Seattle, said a source of whole credit to ESPNdeportes.com. Getty Nobody can deny the ability of the Dominican one to the bat The movement, that contradicts one recent declaration of manager of Boston, Terry Francona, could complete Wednesday, assured the source. “Something great could happen Wednesday. It would surprise to me that Ramirez is not changed to Seattle or east Los Angeles day”, said the source. The Dodgers would yield the right Brad Penny and a pair of prospectos, whereas the Sailors have offered to Adrian Beltré and Richie Sexson, but Boston insists on including to one of two throwers, between lock J.J. Putz and the preinn Rafael Soriano. According to the source, as much the Dodgers as the Sailors has accepted to exert one of the two options of 20 million that the contract of Ramirez contains. Ramirez will gain 38 million dollars by next the two years and could add other 40 million by the options of the 2009-10. Ramirez would approve without conditions the change if one of the equipment accedes to exert the two options. “I do not believe that he happens”, he said to Francona Tuesday to a transmitter of Boston before the perspective to lose to one of the best batters of the Great Leagues. “It is the greatest part of our devastating alignment”, added Francona. “I cannot comment rumors. It is better than we hope to see if it passes something”, said to Gene Matos, one of the agents of Ramirez and one of the few informers whom the player has. Ramirez, of 34 years, bats,314 with 470 home runs and 1.516 races towed in 14 seasons in the Great Leagues. The Dominican one divides equally 39 impelled home runs and 123 since it signed a contract of 140 million by eight years with Boston before the season of the 2001. The player has protested to be changed last the three at least to invier to us. “Manny very would be disappointed if it is not changed. That also happened in the previous years, but now Boston is more urgent to leave him”, said fuent
AndThenThereWasTino
12-06-06, 03:11 PM
found one
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=508950&page=story
just rumors
Find one in English? I can pretty much decipher what they are saying but I would get more from it if it were in English.
Edit: Thanks for the translation.
cmaff05
12-06-06, 03:11 PM
The Red Averages of Boston :roflmao:
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-06-06, 03:13 PM
i dont know where to post this b/c our mods are anti new threads, but i read multiple reports (fox sports net la and espn deportes) that manny has been traded to LAD for penny + 2 prospects.
One of them better not be Elbert...
ring403
12-06-06, 03:14 PM
i dont know where to post this b/c our mods are anti new threadsEspecially bogus new threads.
IronCaballo4
12-06-06, 03:19 PM
Especially bogus new threads.
The Official "Bogus New Threads are Racist" Thread!
CallOfTheCrow
12-06-06, 03:19 PM
If Manny gets traded, I'll delete this account.
Then re-join under a new name. :)
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-06-06, 03:24 PM
The Red Averages of Boston :roflmao:
Exactly what I was thinking.
Though nothing is better than when one of ESPN deportee's article translated through google had the Cubs as "The puppies of Chicago".
genius-24
12-06-06, 03:27 PM
If Manny gets traded, I'll delete this account.
Then re-join under a new name. :)
No you wont...you are too busy counting your posts ;)
yankeefreak04
12-06-06, 03:32 PM
One of them better not be Elbert...
It's kind of funny... My name is Scott Elbert so I pay pretty close atention to that kid's career... It would absoultely break my heart if he gets traded to the Red Sox... I always thought it would be cool to get a t-shirt with his name (my name) when he breaks into the big leagues with whatever team he breaks in with... But, not the Red Sox...
Workhorse
12-06-06, 03:37 PM
the stellar Manny gardener Ramirez
:lol:
Anyone remember Chance from the movie "Being There"?
swityak11
12-06-06, 03:45 PM
:lol:
Anyone remember Chance from the movie "Being There"?Peter Sellers was a genius.
BillBuckner
12-06-06, 03:58 PM
i dont know where to post this b/c our mods are anti new threads.
:-whistle-:
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 04:26 PM
Not much to do with the Yanks, although you could say it ensures that JJ Putz will not be sent to Boston in the event of a Manny deal. What a terrible trade.
<table class="s_playerNewsTable" id="Table1" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="471"><tbody><tr><td width="11">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td style="background: rgb(12, 44, 86) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="10">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_player_news.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsTitle" style="background: rgb(12, 44, 86) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="430"> <table class="s_playerNewsTitle" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" width="33"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/teamlogos/MLB_sm/SEA.gif </td> <td align="left"> Rafael Soriano (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3207)-R-Mariners (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=SEA)</td> <td style="" align="right">Dec. 6 - 5:21 pm et</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td><td style="background: rgb(12, 44, 86) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="14">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/right_corner_player_news.gif</td> <td width="6">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsLeftBorder">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsText"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
Scout.com's Bill Shanks says the Braves have acquired Rafael Soriano from the Mariners for Horacio Ramirez.
Remind us again how Bill Bavasi has a job? Actually, we'll wait for added confirmation before we go off on a rant about this one.
Source: Scout.com (http://braves.scout.com/2/598302.html)</td></tr></tbody></table>
destiNY
12-06-06, 04:27 PM
Not much to do with the Yanks, although you could say it assures that JJ Putz will not be sent to Boston in the event of a Manny deal. What a terrible trade.
<TABLE class=s_playerNewsTable id=Table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=471 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=11>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND: rgb(12,44,86) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=10>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_player_news.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsTitle style="BACKGROUND: rgb(12,44,86) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=430><TABLE class=s_playerNewsTitle cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left width=33>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/teamlogos/MLB_sm/SEA.gif </TD><TD align=left>Rafael Soriano (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3207)-R-Mariners (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=SEA)</TD><TD align=right>Dec. 6 - 5:21 pm et</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> </TD><TD style="BACKGROUND: rgb(12,44,86) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=14>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/right_corner_player_news.gif</TD> <TD width=6>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> </TR><TR> <TD>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsLeftBorder>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD><TD class=s_playerNewsText> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
Scout.com's Bill Shanks says the Braves have acquired Rafael Soriano from the Mariners for Horacio Ramirez.
Remind us again how Bill Bavasi has a job? Actually, we'll wait for added confirmation before we go off on a rant about this one.
Source: Scout.com (http://braves.scout.com/2/598302.html)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
What a joke
English Yankee
12-06-06, 04:28 PM
:lol:
Anyone remember Chance from the movie "Being There"?
PRESIDENT: Mr. Gardner, do you agree with Ben, or do you think that we can stimulate growth through temporary incentives? (Long pause)
MANNY: As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.
PRESIDENT: In the garden?
MANNY: Yes. In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.
PRESIDENT: Spring and summer.
MANNY: Yes.
PRESIDENT: Then fall and winter.
MANNY: Yes.
BENJAMIN RAND: I think what our insightful young friend is saying is that we welcome the inevitable seasons of nature, but we're upset by the seasons of our economy.
MANNY: Yes! There will be growth in the spring!
RAND: Hmmmm.
MANNY: Hmmmm.
PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Gardner, I must admit that is one of the most refreshing and optimistic statements I've heard in a very, very long time!
Jerzy Kosinski
Being There
1979
Ripped off by English Yankee
2006
NYKforever
12-06-06, 04:28 PM
Not much to do with the Yanks, although you could say it assures that JJ Putz will not be sent to Boston in the event of a Manny deal. What a terrible trade.
<table class="s_playerNewsTable" id="Table1" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="471"><tbody><tr><td width="11">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td style="background: rgb(12, 44, 86) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="10">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_player_news.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsTitle" style="background: rgb(12, 44, 86) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="430"> <table class="s_playerNewsTitle" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" width="33"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/teamlogos/MLB_sm/SEA.gif </td> <td align="left"> Rafael Soriano (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3207)-R-Mariners (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=SEA)</td> <td style="" align="right">Dec. 6 - 5:21 pm et</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td><td style="background: rgb(12, 44, 86) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="14">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/right_corner_player_news.gif</td> <td width="6">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsLeftBorder">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsText"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
Scout.com's Bill Shanks says the Braves have acquired Rafael Soriano from the Mariners for Horacio Ramirez.
Remind us again how Bill Bavasi has a job? Actually, we'll wait for added confirmation before we go off on a rant about this one.
Source: Scout.com (http://braves.scout.com/2/598302.html)</td></tr></tbody></table>
You have to be kidding me. We could have probably offered better than that. I like Soriano more than anyone in our bullpen excluding Mariano.
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 04:30 PM
What a joke
Seriously. Ticks me off that we didn't get Raf., being that the Seattle GM makes trades while he's high.
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 04:30 PM
Wow what a poor trade for the M's if true.
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 04:31 PM
You have to be kidding me. We could have probably offered better than that. I like Soriano more than anyone in our bullpen excluding Mariano.
Exactly! I'm sure if Cashman had any clue they wanted someone to rape them, he would have swooped in with Pavano.
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 04:31 PM
Seriously. Ticks me off that we didn't get Raf., being that the Seattle GM makes trades while he's high.
Get him and Bowden in a room together, who knows what could happen.
Schuerholz is viewed as a genius because he is good at making deals with idiots.
cmaff05
12-06-06, 04:42 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/12/06/mets.athletics/index.html
Ted Lilly's future is in Brian Cashman's hands on Wednesday. Lilly has told the Yankees he'd return for a $40 million, four-year deal, and Cashman is currently weighing whether to take him up on the offer. It is expected he'll have a decision for Lilly by Thursday.
Heymann is reporting Lilly would take a discount to return to NY, the Cubs will do $11 mill x 4 and he'd settle for $10 mill x 4 as a Yankee.
Heymann is reporting Lilly would take a discount to return to NY, the Cubs will do $11 mill x 4 and he'd settle for $10 mill x 4 as a Yankee.
That's an illusory discount.
NyyNjnNyg
12-06-06, 04:44 PM
No thanks, 4/40 for Lilly is still too much.
genius-24
12-06-06, 04:44 PM
If Lily is a yankee i will stop coming to boards...
If Lily is a yankee i will stop coming to boards...
*so many jokes....must resist urge to post...must resist*
If Lily is a yankee i will stop coming to boards...
I hope Cash isn't lurking today...
YankeePride1967
12-06-06, 04:46 PM
That's an illusory discount.
To me that would be like getting a gallon of milk for half price when the gallon is priced at $19.99.
To me that would be like getting a gallon of milk for half price when the gallon is priced at $19.99.
So Ted is lowfat? Or did I not get it?:o
The absolute most I'd offer Lilly was 3 years/$27 million with a team option for a 4th year
Yankees1962
12-06-06, 04:47 PM
I hope Cash isn't lurking today...
He probably stopped after reading here that his pen pal lost faith in him.;)
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 04:49 PM
Is NY Sports Dog bs?
http://nysportsdog.blogspot.com/
I don't know but rotoworld just posted about 20 minutes ago that Pettitte pitching in 2007 instead of retiring is a definite. So it's either Yanks or Astros.
cmaff05
12-06-06, 04:51 PM
Nysportsdog.blogspot.com reported that the Bannister deal was official before SI did. Take that for what it is worth.
Nysportsdog.blogspot.com reported that the Bannister deal was official before SI did. Take that for what it is worth.
They are probably like NyyNews.com in that they offer up a lot of speculation. They built their entire "rumor source" reputation on "breaking" the Farnsworth signing about 90 minutes before anyone else.
Beccash18
12-06-06, 04:57 PM
Pettitte wants to play next year.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-pettitte&prov=ap&type=lgns
NyyNjnNyg
12-06-06, 04:59 PM
That blog site says we "might have a major announcement regarding the yankees"...I wish it was a more credible site, and if this is true it better be good.
That blog site says we "might have a major announcement regarding the yankees"...I wish it was a more credible site, and if this is true it better be good.
He is the prefect fit here.
So either
Wang
Andy
Moose
Unit
Iggy
or
Wang
Andy
Moose
Pavano
Iggy
Could live with either. :)
Gil Meche is close to signing with the Cubs
Chi wanted both him and Lilly and I feel like the Yanks bargaining position just improved
CBS: (underlining, smiley mine)
New York Yankees Updated:12/06/2006
With the winter meetings buzzing about a report Andy Pettitte could be a Yankee by the end of the week, the Post reported Astros manager Phil Garner said the likelihood of Pettitte pitching another year exists -- but not necessarily with Houston. The Post also reported the Yankees inquired about Jason Giambi waiving his no-trade clause.:mad: But as with Alex Rodriguez, the Yanks were told Giambi has no desire to waive his no-trade provision.
FWIW
indianyanksfan
12-06-06, 05:17 PM
CBS: (underlining, smiley mine)
FWIW
so are you happy/unhappy w/ that news?
so garner's given up hope of andy's return to houston...hahah now they know how we felt.
hardrain
12-06-06, 05:17 PM
This is great news about Andy. It seems more likely than ever that he is coming to the Bronx in 2007. As far as Lilly, he is just plain average. He's not worth it at the price he is asking.
I am thrilled that we might get Andy back. I'm bummed that they asked Jason to waive his NTC (if true). :(
This is great news about Andy. It seems more likely than ever that he is coming to the Bronx in 2007. As far as Lilly, he is just plain average. He's not worth it at the price he is asking.
I agree. The Lilly talks could be renamed the "put a fire under Andy's butt" talks. :)
indianyanksfan
12-06-06, 05:21 PM
I am thrilled that we might get Andy back. I'm bummed that they asked Jason to waive his NTC (if true). :(
well cash did say that no one was really untouchable except for mo!
NyyNjnNyg
12-06-06, 05:24 PM
I am thrilled that we might get Andy back. I'm bummed that they asked Jason to waive his NTC (if true). :(
I would actually be thrilled to unload Giambi...He's too streaky, injury prone, defensive liabiltiy, frees up money.
Philip Hughes Fan
12-06-06, 05:26 PM
I am thrilled that we might get Andy back. I'm bummed that they asked Jason to waive his NTC (if true). :(
I love Jason, but if you can get rid of his salary and get anything in return you absolutely do it.
I love Jason, but if you can get rid of his salary and get anything in return you absolutely do it.
You're probably right, Doubt you'd be able to get rid of much of his salary, though.
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 06:22 PM
oh thsi si getting good...
I just heard on XM that Cashman left the meeting, he said that the market is too crazy for the Yankees and he will wait until it settle a little...:eek:
bambam51
12-06-06, 06:27 PM
oh thsi si getting good...
I just heard on XM that Cashman left the meeting, he said that the market is too crazy for the Yankees and he will wait until it settle a little...:eek:
He's making it seem like he really wants help in the rotation with all the Pettitte/Lilly rumors BUT he doesn't like the market. The fact remains that he's still interested in upgrading the rotation. So this can be posturing to set up trade talks for starting pitchers. For all of you who think the staff is fine as is...Cashman seems to disagree.
Wade_Taylor
12-06-06, 06:29 PM
oh thsi si getting good...
I just heard on XM that Cashman left the meeting, he said that the market is too crazy for the Yankees and he will wait until it settle a little...:eek:
Left a meeting with a player or left the winter meetings entirely?
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 06:32 PM
Left a meeting with a player or left the winter meetings entirely?
that is it hes gone he left the winter meetings entirely... Tampa I think that is what they said... Maybe to see the boss:P
destiNY
12-06-06, 06:35 PM
Left a meeting with a player or left the winter meetings entirely?
Probably left with a lady on each arm...that Pimp
YanksFanTillDeath
12-06-06, 06:37 PM
Probably left with a lady on each arm...that Pimp
yeah I think he got that from DJ
Dr. Gonzo
12-06-06, 06:38 PM
good move by cashman, i like it
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