View Full Version : Yankees Winter Meetings Thread
Penny has been a slightly above average pitcher the last two seasons:
ERA+:
2005: 104
2006: 106
His contract:
07:$7.5M, 08:$8.5M, 09:$8.75M club option ($2M buyout)
Unless he can acquire him without giving up quality prospects, Cash is focusing too much on cost savings for a franchise whose biggest strength is their financial advantage.
Compared to the stupid signing by Texas of Padilla, which now means that Lillly and Meche are getting 3/36, or 4/50, and Zito is getting his 6 or 7 year deal for 15 million+ per year, Penny makes a lot of sense (and dollars to!!)
NYDCYankee
12-05-06, 07:18 AM
http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17549720&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478568&rfi=6
The New York Yankees reportedly have asked the Pirates about the availability of left-hander reliever Damaso Marte, who agreed to a re-worked contract last week that will guarantee him $4.75 million over the next two seasons with a club option for 2009.
The Yankees are said to be offering left-handed hitting outfielder Kevin Thompson, a 27-year-old who made his major-league debut in 2006 and hit .300 with one homer and six RBIs in 19 games after spending seven seasons in the minors. The Pirates, though, have their sights set higher than Thompson and likely would make that deal only if others fall through and they also got a second player back from the Yankees.
Psssssssst... KT is a righty.
BRNXBMRS
12-05-06, 08:25 AM
That geek on 1050 (Grenny) keepd fluffing the A-rod to the WhiteSox trade. I ahvent read anything on it this am. He must be full of it.
And as another Yankee operative told me: "Good as a guy like Willis might be, we've learned our lesson about bringing National League pitchers over to this league. In the case of almost all of them, their ERAs go up a run per game.
NO NL'ers
ARoDfan4life
12-05-06, 08:49 AM
That geek on 1050 (Grenny) keepd fluffing the A-rod to the WhiteSox trade. I ahvent read anything on it this am. He must be full of it.
Yes he is because Cashman has stated over and over again that Alex Rodriguez is staying in NY , Sweeny even at around 3 AM yesterday had a report on WFAN and was asked if Arod was being discussed , he said teams have asked, Cashman laughs and rejects any and every offer left and right
yankeejohn
12-05-06, 08:51 AM
I love Penny's stuff (who wouldnt?) and his attitude, but he's another injury waiting to happen IMO. The guy has had countless arm problems. I guess if its just Farnsworth, Id like it, but I wouldnt want to throw in any young arms to get him.
deadrody
12-05-06, 09:09 AM
Because every other manager will be there and it's pretty much expected for everyone except Teflon Joe.
So the expectation that a manager attends is universally stupid and the Yankees are the only ones that have it right ? Is that it ?
Cashman makes the personnel decisions. Just because other managers are there, who cares ? What difference is Joe going to make ? Easy answer is NONE. So his presence would seem entirely pointless. But, by all means, make him go anyway since all the other teams do it.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:09 AM
I love Penny's stuff (who wouldnt?) and his attitude, but he's another injury waiting to happen IMO. The guy has had countless arm problems. I guess if its just Farnsworth, Id like it, but I wouldnt want to throw in any young arms to get him.
It would have to be just Farnsworth. That's it. Why give up more for yet another NL pitcher, who has had plenty of injuries (one of which was an "upper arm nerve injury")?
NelsonMuntz
12-05-06, 09:10 AM
That geek on 1050 (Grenny) keepd fluffing the A-rod to the WhiteSox trade. I ahvent read anything on it this am. He must be full of it.
Never gonna happen.
NYDCYankee
12-05-06, 09:17 AM
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/c...ALL_S1.article
No means no, right?
Time will tell.
The New York Yankees have insisted they will not trade star third baseman Alex Rodriguez. Rodriguez, who has a no-trade clause, has said he does not want to be traded even though Yankees fans and media were rough on him in 2006.
So everything is quiet on the A-Rod front, right?
Not quite. In fact, there are many people in baseball circles who don't believe the Yankees or Rodriguez and their denials. Speculation at the winter meetings, which officially began Monday, says he is available for a trade. According to Monday's Boston Herald, the White Sox are interested in A-Rod and could use third baseman Joe Crede and a starting pitcher -- Mark Buehrle or Freddy Garcia -- as trade bait.
This is where it might come from
genius-24
12-05-06, 09:19 AM
May be then we can swing Penny for a Good 1B.
Clemens831
12-05-06, 09:20 AM
May be then we can swing Penny for a Good 1B.
Just FMI - where is all of this Penny talk coming from, exactly?
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:21 AM
According to Monday's Boston Herald, the White Sox are interested in A-Rod and could use third baseman Joe Crede and a starting pitcher -- Mark Buehrle or Freddy Garcia -- as trade bait.
So the Boston Herald prints a fantasy of theirs and other people in the media take it and run with...ugh.
genius-24
12-05-06, 09:21 AM
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/c...ALL_S1.article
No means no, right?
Time will tell.
The New York Yankees have insisted they will not trade star third baseman Alex Rodriguez. Rodriguez, who has a no-trade clause, has said he does not want to be traded even though Yankees fans and media were rough on him in 2006.
So everything is quiet on the A-Rod front, right?
Not quite. In fact, there are many people in baseball circles who don't believe the Yankees or Rodriguez and their denials. Speculation at the winter meetings, which officially began Monday, says he is available for a trade. According to Monday's Boston Herald, the White Sox are interested in A-Rod and could use third baseman Joe Crede and a starting pitcher -- Mark Buehrle or Freddy Garcia -- as trade bait.
BS!!!
NYDCYankee
12-05-06, 09:24 AM
Just FMI - where is all of this Penny talk coming from, exactly?
Sweeny Murti last night on Tony Paige (:barf: :barf: :barf: he's the worst:barf: :barf: :barf: )
NelsonMuntz
12-05-06, 09:38 AM
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/c...ALL_S1.article
No means no, right?
Time will tell.
The New York Yankees have insisted they will not trade star third baseman Alex Rodriguez. Rodriguez, who has a no-trade clause, has said he does not want to be traded even though Yankees fans and media were rough on him in 2006.
So everything is quiet on the A-Rod front, right?
Not quite. In fact, there are many people in baseball circles who don't believe the Yankees or Rodriguez and their denials. Speculation at the winter meetings, which officially began Monday, says he is available for a trade. According to Monday's Boston Herald, the White Sox are interested in A-Rod and could use third baseman Joe Crede and a starting pitcher -- Mark Buehrle or Freddy Garcia -- as trade bait.
This is where it might come from
Crede + Garcia for A-Rod :lol: :roflmao:
Cashman would reject that offer before it ever left Kenny William's fax machine.
NYDCYankee
12-05-06, 09:43 AM
Crede + Garcia for A-Rod :lol: :roflmao:
Cashman would reject that offer before it ever left Kenny William's fax machine.
Funny thing is I think the people in Chicago think that is a good deal.
The Angels wouldn't even take that for Santana and Figgins.
StatenIslandYankee
12-05-06, 09:50 AM
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/c...ALL_S1.article
No means no, right?
Time will tell.
The New York Yankees have insisted they will not trade star third baseman Alex Rodriguez. Rodriguez, who has a no-trade clause, has said he does not want to be traded even though Yankees fans and media were rough on him in 2006.
So everything is quiet on the A-Rod front, right?
Not quite. In fact, there are many people in baseball circles who don't believe the Yankees or Rodriguez and their denials. Speculation at the winter meetings, which officially began Monday, says he is available for a trade. According to Monday's Boston Herald, the White Sox are interested in A-Rod and could use third baseman Joe Crede and a starting pitcher -- Mark Buehrle or Freddy Garcia -- as trade bait.
This is where it might come fromI'd hang up the phone.
Metroidman
12-05-06, 09:53 AM
White Sox fans are morons from what I know
They think McCarthy is the best prospect ever or w/e and he doens't have anywhere near ace stuff. Their whole staff sans Buehrle is average and even Buehrle wasn't that great last year.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 09:59 AM
From the cnnsi.com rumors section. Pretty sad, actually.
All indications suggest the Royals are among the finalists, though not necessarily the favorites, in the negotiations to sign free-agent pitchers Gil Meche and/or Miguel Batista.
-- Kansas City Star
...yeah...sure.
BRNXBMRS
12-05-06, 10:01 AM
Who ever is pushing the A-rod to the WhiteSox rumor has to be smoking some chronic. I hate this trade for the Yanks, I am glad a lot of other people feel the same way.
Metroidman
12-05-06, 10:02 AM
Everyone in baseball would hate that trade except for the White Sox fans who suddenly think everyone on their team is an All Star
They think Garcia is better than Wang and so is Garland
NelsonMuntz
12-05-06, 10:18 AM
Who ever is pushing the A-rod to the WhiteSox rumor has to be smoking some chronic. I hate this trade for the Yanks, I am glad a lot of other people feel the same way.
Why in the world would the Yankees trade A-Rod for a 3rd baseman with a career 95 OPS+ (so the Yanks would be downgrading offensively by 50 points with regards to OPS+) and a middle - back end of the rotation starter? How does that make them better? There is zero truth to this rumor. It's just wishful thinking on the part of White Sox fans.
MTYankee23
12-05-06, 10:22 AM
It doesn't make them better. At all. You're not going to trade one of the top 3 position players in the game who you have reasonably signed for a few more years for a soon to be FA with back problems and a lesser OPS+ and a mid rotation starter.
I do Farnsworth for Penny in a heartbeat.
Why would the Dodgers trade their #1 starting pitcher for Kyle Farnswoth???
MTYankee23
12-05-06, 10:31 AM
Why would the Dodgers trade their #1 starting pitcher for Kyle Farnswoth???
They need to free up money because they signed Juan Pierre.
In all seriousness, I'm guessing there's more to it than Penny for Farnsworth straight up, unless theres a bad physical no one knows about yet.
NYDCYankee
12-05-06, 10:32 AM
Why would the Dodgers trade their #1 starting pitcher for Kyle Farnswoth???
Good question. Ask Sweeny Murti. He will be on WFAN. At noon.
Roberto Kelly
12-05-06, 10:33 AM
Why in the world would the Yankees trade A-Rod for a 3rd baseman with a career 95 OPS+ (so the Yanks would be downgrading offensively by 50 points with regards to OPS+) and a middle - back end of the rotation starter? How does that make them better? There is zero truth to this rumor. It's just wishful thinking on the part of White Sox fans.
Precisely.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 11:00 AM
Crede + Garcia for A-Rod :lol: :roflmao:
Cashman would reject that offer before it ever left Kenny William's fax machine.If they want arod it has to start with Mccarthy and continue with ryan sweeny and josh fields.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 11:01 AM
Why would the Dodgers trade their #1 starting pitcher for Kyle Farnswoth???They probably view billingsly as their no1 now and farnsworth would pitch well there.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 11:01 AM
I read this on Soxtalk.com
This is a bit off subject but I wonder if Casman would change his mind about Hughes and Clippard if KW dangled Garland.
:roflmao:
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 11:05 AM
I read this on Soxtalk.com
:roflmao:I wouldn't trade Rasner for Garland let alone Hughes or Clip LOL
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:05 AM
<table class="s_playerNewsTable" id="Table1" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="471"><tbody><tr><td width="11">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td style="background: rgb(149, 50, 44) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="10">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_player_news.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsTitle" style="background: rgb(149, 50, 44) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="430"> <table class="s_playerNewsTitle" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" width="33"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/teamlogos/MLB_sm/HOU.gif </td> <td align="left"> Report: Pettitte could rejoin Yankees (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2021)</td> <td style="" align="right">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td><td style="background: rgb(149, 50, 44) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="14">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/right_corner_player_news.gif</td> <td width="6">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsLeftBorder">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsText"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
A source told SI.com's Tom Verducci that Andy Pettitte likes the idea of returning to New York and "could possibly have a deal by the end of the week."
Verducci seems to be the only one saying it at the moment. If the Yankees can bring in Pettitte, they'll probably be more open to dumping as much of Carl Pavano's contract as they can on the Cardinals, Rockies or another team. Dec. 5 - 11:51 am et
Source: SI.com (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=cnnsi-yankeesclosetop&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns)</td></tr></tbody></table>
:D
<TABLE class=s_playerNewsTable id=Table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=471 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=11>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND: rgb(149,50,44) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=10>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_player_news.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsTitle style="BACKGROUND: rgb(149,50,44) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=430><TABLE class=s_playerNewsTitle cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left width=33>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/teamlogos/MLB_sm/HOU.gif </TD><TD align=left>Report: Pettitte could rejoin Yankees (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2021)</TD><TD align=right>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> </TD><TD style="BACKGROUND: rgb(149,50,44) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=14>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/right_corner_player_news.gif</TD> <TD width=6>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> </TR><TR> <TD>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsLeftBorder>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD><TD class=s_playerNewsText> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
A source told SI.com's Tom Verducci that Andy Pettitte likes the idea of returning to New York and "could possibly have a deal by the end of the week."
Verducci seems to be the only one saying it at the moment. If the Yankees can bring in Pettitte, they'll probably be more open to dumping as much of Carl Pavano's contract as they can on the Cardinals, Rockies or another team. Dec. 5 - 11:51 am et
Source: SI.com (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=cnnsi-yankeesclosetop&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
:D
Dude, you seriously need to fix your copy and paste skills, do the link and the blurb separately
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:09 AM
Dude, you seriously need to fix your copy and paste skills, do the link and the blurb separately
It looks nothing like that on my screen.
No need to have an attitude. You seriously need to fix your people skills?
It looks nothing like that on my screen.
No need to have an attitude.
Sorry for the attitude but the posts are almost unreadable.
ARoDfan4life
12-05-06, 11:12 AM
<TABLE class=s_playerNewsTable id=Table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=471 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=11>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND: rgb(149,50,44) 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=10>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_player_news.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsTitle style="BACKGROUND: rgb(149,50,44) 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=430><TABLE class=s_playerNewsTitle cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left width=33>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/teamlogos/MLB_sm/HOU.gif </TD><TD align=left>Report: Pettitte could rejoin Yankees (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2021)</TD><TD align=right>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> </TD><TD style="BACKGROUND: rgb(149,50,44) 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=14>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/right_corner_player_news.gif</TD> <TD width=6>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> </TR><TR> <TD>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsLeftBorder>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD><TD class=s_playerNewsText> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
A source told SI.com's Tom Verducci that Andy Pettitte likes the idea of returning to New York and "could possibly have a deal by the end of the week."
Verducci seems to be the only one saying it at the moment. If the Yankees can bring in Pettitte, they'll probably be more open to dumping as much of Carl Pavano's contract as they can on the Cardinals, Rockies or another team. Dec. 5 - 11:51 am et
Source: SI.com (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=cnnsi-yankeesclosetop&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
:D
how do you copy and paste w/ the rotoworld logo headers like you did ?
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:12 AM
Sorry for the attitude but the posts are almost unreadable.
Nobody else has seemed to have a problem with it. And if they have, they have not said anything.
I did the same with a Manny cut & paste, and it was re-quoted by someone just fine here:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=3773415&postcount=472
(as well as in the post above this)
Perhaps the problem is yours.
NelsonMuntz
12-05-06, 11:13 AM
It looks nothing like that on my screen.
Looks fine on my screen as well. Mark might be using AOL.
ynkefan23
12-05-06, 11:14 AM
I love Andy...but do we REALLY want him?
he's older...cranky elbow...1-2yrs more tops!
i also don't trade Pavano (And Cashman says he's had offers) because we'd pay the contract and get NOTHING back
Nobody else has seemed to have a problem with it. And if they have, they have not said anything.
I did the same with a Manny cut & paste, and it was re-quoted by someone just fine here:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=3773415&postcount=472
(as well as in the post above this)
Perhaps the problem is yours.
Turns out my viewing settings are out of date, my mistake, sorry for the criticism
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:16 AM
Turns out my viewing settings are out of date, my mistake, sorry for the criticism
Fair enough.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:18 AM
i also don't trade Pavano (And Cashman says he's had offers) because we'd pay the contract and get NOTHING back
But Pavano is "NOTHING" as is. Even if he can come back and be a mediocre pitcher, hasn't he lost the respect of his teammates and the front office?
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 11:19 AM
I love Andy...but do we REALLY want him?
he's older...cranky elbow...1-2yrs more tops!
i also don't trade Pavano (And Cashman says he's had offers) because we'd pay the contract and get NOTHING back
Yes, I REALLY want Pettitte back.
He's still a very solid pitcher. It would only take a 1 or 2 year tops becaues he obviously is thinking about retirement. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 1 year deal with a player option and maybe another player option based on meeting certain inning requirements.
And who knows how little or much we'll get back for Pavano... I trust Cashman will do the right thing with that.
ARoDfan4life
12-05-06, 11:22 AM
Panamaniac42 how do you copy & paste w/ the rotoworld articles w/ out just making it text style ...
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:22 AM
Yes, I REALLY want Pettitte back.
He's still a very solid pitcher. It would only take a 1 or 2 year tops becaues he obviously is thinking about retirement. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 1 year deal with a player option and maybe another player option based on meeting certain inning requirements.
And who knows how little or much we'll get back for Pavano... I trust Cashman will do the right thing with that.
Definitely, the length (or shortness, however you want to put it) of the commitment is attractive.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:24 AM
Panamaniac42 how do you copy & paste w/ the rotoworld articles w/ out just making it text style ...
Sorry I didn't respond to your previous post. I just selected it and copied it off the rotoworld front page, hit "New Reply" on here and right-clicked in the message window & hit "Paste".
genius-24
12-05-06, 11:25 AM
Rotoworld thing is fine, End of discussion! :D
genius-24
12-05-06, 11:28 AM
Yes, I REALLY want Pettitte back.
He's still a very solid pitcher. It would only take a 1 or 2 year tops becaues he obviously is thinking about retirement. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 1 year deal with a player option and maybe another player option based on meeting certain inning requirements.
And who knows how little or much we'll get back for Pavano... I trust Cashman will do the right thing with that.
Hmm...First Trade Pavano, Then sign Pettite. Otherwise Pavano's price will go down.
Wang
Pettite
Moose
RJ
Igawa
Not bad...but one extra lefty. Yea, but still better then having Pavano in there.
ARoDfan4life
12-05-06, 11:31 AM
Sorry I didn't respond to your previous post. I just selected it and copied it off the rotoworld front page, hit "New Reply" on here and right-clicked in the message window & hit "Paste".
ok thanks I just figured out the link only is shown like it is in Rotoworld on this message board I was wondering why thanks
BRNXBMRS
12-05-06, 11:32 AM
Verducci has been talking up Pettitte to the Yanks for a while. Last week on "Yankees Hot Stove" on YES he said the samething. For 1-2 year deal at the right price it makes sense.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 11:34 AM
Verducci has been talking up Pettitte to the Yanks for a while. Last week on "Yankees Hot Stove" on YES he said the samething. For 1-2 year deal at the right price it makes sense.Lets hope he's right.
ring403
12-05-06, 11:35 AM
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/362EF8C9D898BD658625723B005E109C?OpenDocument
LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- An exploding free agent market has apparently made New York Yankees starter Carl Pavano a commodity once more after he failed to make an appearance last season because of injuries.
Pavano has given the Yankees little since signing a four-year, $40 million deal as a free agent following the 2004 season.
Cardinals general manager Walt Jocketty downplayed speculation that the Cardinals and Yankees may deal here, but the clubs have yet to meet.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:42 AM
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/362EF8C9D898BD658625723B005E109C?OpenDocument
Re: The Cards & Pavano, who would be coming back this way?
I would do what we have to do to get Chris Duncan. I believe he's a 1b by trade but obviously with Pujols they are forced to put him in the outfield.
ring403
12-05-06, 11:47 AM
Re: The Cards & Pavano, who would be coming back this way?
I would do what we have to do to get Chris Duncan. I believe he's a 1b by trade but obviously with Pujols they are forced to put him in the outfield.I don't see the Yankees getting much in the way of talent in return. If a deal happens, Cashman will be trying to unload as much of Pavano's contract as possible.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/362EF8C9D898BD658625723B005E109C?OpenDocument
When was the last time you saw "Carl Pavano" and "commodity" in the same sentence??
donnybball23
12-05-06, 11:54 AM
Rob Neyer's chat:
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Mike (chicago, IL): Rumors are flying about A-Rod for Garcia and Crede. Anything known about this?
<!-- displayed mode -->http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Rob Neyer: (12:47 PM ET ) All I know about this is the lopsided nature of the transaction. Unless the Yankees send along some money.
Has he lost his mind?
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 11:55 AM
Wow, I hope he was joking.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 11:56 AM
Rob Neyer's chat:
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Mike (chicago, IL): Rumors are flying about A-Rod for Garcia and Crede. Anything known about this?
<!-- displayed mode -->http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Rob Neyer: (12:47 PM ET ) All I know about this is the lopsided nature of the transaction. Unless the Yankees send along some money.
Has he lost his mind?Maybe he means money wise...
In Mo I Trust
12-05-06, 11:56 AM
When was the last time you saw "Carl Pavano" and "commodity" in the same sentence??
Carl Pavano is not a hot commodity, or something of that nature. :D
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:57 AM
Rob Neyer's chat:
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Mike (chicago, IL): Rumors are flying about A-Rod for Garcia and Crede. Anything known about this?
<!-- displayed mode -->http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Rob Neyer: (12:47 PM ET ) All I know about this is the lopsided nature of the transaction. Unless the Yankees send along some money.
Has he lost his mind?
Sometimes I wish I had people that dumb in front of me so I could beat them in the head, face, and neck area with a baseball bat.
donnybball23
12-05-06, 11:57 AM
Maybe he means money wise...
Well I don't think the White Sox would gripe about the money if they managed that trade.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 11:58 AM
Rob Neyer's chat:
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Mike (chicago, IL): Rumors are flying about A-Rod for Garcia and Crede. Anything known about this?
<!-- displayed mode -->http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Rob Neyer: (12:47 PM ET ) All I know about this is the lopsided nature of the transaction. Unless the Yankees send along some money.
Has he lost his mind?
I hate Neyer. He knows what he is talking about until it comes to the Yankees...
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 11:58 AM
Maybe he means money wise...
Perhaps. But uhh...talent is also a major component to any deal and he just chose to ignore it.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 11:58 AM
Sometimes I wish I had people that dumb in front of me so I could beat them in the head, face, and neck area with a baseball bat.Neyer isn't stupid... I think he must have been misunderstood.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 12:01 PM
Neyer isn't stupid... I think he must have been misunderstood.
For his sake I hope so.
If we're gonna trade ARod for Crede & Garcia, why not just trade him for Brandon Inge & Mike Maroth, or Mike Lamb & Brandon Backe. And let's send money, too, to make it "fair".
ARoDfan4life
12-05-06, 12:01 PM
I hate these Arod BS rumors I feel like Cashman has tp put a tatoo on his head saying F' off !!!
P.S. would anyone be open to trading Carl Pavano for Jorge Sosa ?
But Pavano is "NOTHING" as is. Even if he can come back and be a mediocre pitcher, hasn't he lost the respect of his teammates and the front office?
Perhaps, but I don't see the Yankees paying him $10 M to pitch for the Cards next year and getting nothing in return. There's got to be a less expensive way of opening a roster spot.
gamesix1977
12-05-06, 12:07 PM
Get Pettitte, dump Pavano, then we have our quota of "P" pitchers.
StatenIslandYankee
12-05-06, 12:11 PM
Andy back to the Bronx is almost done ... or so several sources say ...
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 12:11 PM
Get Pettitte, dump Pavano, then we have our quota of "P" pitchers.
That would be ideal...
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 12:12 PM
Andy back to the Bronx is almost done ... or so several sources say ...
WHAT!?!? What sources?
justtxyank
12-05-06, 12:12 PM
WHAT!?!? What sources?
Seriously
destiNY
12-05-06, 12:12 PM
Andy back to the Bronx is almost done ... or so several sources say ...
Bring back my favorite Yankee! Get it done!
Andy back to the Bronx is almost done ... or so several sources say ...
I don't know of anyone who has said that. The only thing I've seen is that they may be talking and Andy might be warming to the idea of a return.
I just got home and found out abotu Andy after a pretty grueling job interview. Its funny how something like this an brighten a day.
I have to be honest, right from the start I felt like Andy might be open to a return. If he weren't, one would have to think he would have made that clear the minute Cashman approached him.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/477278p-401556c.html
Bill Madden
Actually, what I find most intersting is the inclusion of Brett Gardner on the list of blue chip prospects.
OK, (if true)
Wang
Moose
Unit
Pettite
Igawa
So,
3 possibilities
1.Unit retires, Pavano stays
2.Unit doesn't retire, Pavano gone
3.Unit doesn't retire, Igawa gone
I pick #1 :)
CallOfTheCrow
12-05-06, 12:20 PM
I'd put Andy before RJ
destiNY
12-05-06, 12:21 PM
Actually, what I find most intersting is the inclusion of Brett Gardner on the list of blue chip prospects.
.406 OBP in the Arizona Fall League will do that, if only his bat stayed hot throughout
destiNY
12-05-06, 12:22 PM
I'd put Andy before RJ
Yea, and I'd want RJ to retire as well
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 12:22 PM
OK, (if true)
Wang
Moose
Unit
Pettite
Igawa
So,
3 possibilities
1.Unit retires, Pavano stays
2.Unit doesn't retire, Pavano gone
3.Unit doesn't retire, Igawa gone
I pick #1 :)
Let's just make RJ a $16 mil lefty specialist to take Villone's place :P.
Wang
Pettite
Moose
RJ
Igawa
Not bad...but one extra lefty. Yea, but still better then having Pavano in there.
Why is that one extra lefty? The more effective LHSP, the better.
.406 OBP in the Arizona Fall League will do that, if only his bat stayed hot throughout
Definitely. On both points. And you know what? A leadoff hitter doesn't have to get on with a hit. If he gets on over 40% of the time, that's about all that matters. And whenever he does get a real hit, he has a shot to turn it into a double or tripple with his speed, plus to steal a base or two.
Why is that one extra lefty? The more effective LHSP, the better.
Really, all this talk of running Randy out is ridiculous. If he is finally healthy, he is very likely the Yankees number 2 starter next year.
I'd put Andy before RJ
I stand (justifiably) corrected. :)
Really, all this talk of running Randy out is ridiculous. If he is finally healthy, he is very likely the Yankees number 2 starter next year.
No one on this board hopes that you're right more than me.
CallOfTheCrow
12-05-06, 12:33 PM
Just imagine we got Mats & Andy.
Wang
Mats
Moose
Andy
RJ
Oh baby.
destiNY
12-05-06, 12:34 PM
Really, all this talk of running Randy out is ridiculous. If he is finally healthy, he is very likely the Yankees number 2 starter next year.
You really think he's capable of that?
Even when healthy I question his ability to:
Pitch consistently into the 7th inning
Stay healthy thoughout the year
Average an ERA under 4.00 throughout the year
I just think he's one of those pitchers who are affected by age, whereas some are not (clemens)
BeantownYankee
12-05-06, 12:42 PM
Why is that one extra lefty? The more effective LHSP, the better.
True, Ortiz doesn't like them and here's Nancy Drews split against Lefties...
Avg OBP Slg OPS
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD>.244</TD><TD>.338</TD><TD>.378</TD><TD>.716</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Peter Abraham says he spoke with Phil Garner and he said Andy recently indicated a desire to continue pitching.
Here's some news for you: Houston manager Phil Garner just said he spoke with Andy Pettitte last week and got the indication that Pettitte wants to play next season.
But Garner said he received no indication as to where Pettitte would want to play.
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html
Peter Abraham says he spoke with Phil Garner and he said Andy recently indicated a desire to continue pitching.
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html
The good news is that Garner received no indication as to where Pettitte would want to play. It shows Pettitte may think about returning to NY as a serious option.
You really think he's capable of that?
Even when healthy I question his ability to:
Pitch consistently into the 7th inning
Stay healthy thoughout the year
Average an ERA under 4.00 throughout the year
I just think he's one of those pitchers who are affected by age, whereas some are not (clemens)
I absolutely believe he is capable of it. Randy has been having back issues since his first season as a Yankee. These are problems which have never actually been worked on. With his offseason surgery, I feel like he is finally back to some form of good health. For all the talk of him being 43 years old, he was 40 in 2004 and was perhaps the best major league pitcher.
I honestly feel like it has not so much been an issue of old age with Randy and the Yankees, but health.
ARoDfan4life
12-05-06, 12:51 PM
You really think he's capable of that?
Even when healthy I question his ability to:
Pitch consistently into the 7th inning
Stay healthy thoughout the year
Average an ERA under 4.00 throughout the year
I just think he's one of those pitchers who are affected by age, whereas some are not (clemens)
your future list is missing "Humberto Sanchez";)
destiNY
12-05-06, 12:55 PM
I absolutely believe he is capable of it. Randy has been having back issues since his first season as a Yankee. These are problems which have never actually been worked on. With his offseason surgery, I feel like he is finally back to some form of good health. For all the talk of him being 43 years old, he was 40 in 2004 and was perhaps the best major league pitcher.
I honestly feel like it has not so much been an issue of old age with Randy and the Yankees, but health.
Valid argument, although there is a big difference between 40 and 43 years old...I'm not saying I'm definately going to be right...But if I had to put money on it. Again, we all hope your right.
jimmykey2
12-05-06, 12:55 PM
Is anyone discussing trading Kyle Farnsworth?
If the Yanks got a good deal (not blown away, but just fair), I would trade Kyle in a second. He's not going to be the future closer of this team. I actually liked him a lot more towards the end of the season as Joe finally figured out how to use him.
Is anyone discussing trading Kyle Farnsworth?
If the Yanks got a good deal (not blown away, but just fair), I would trade Kyle in a second. He's not going to be the future closer of this team. I actually liked him a lot more towards the end of the season as Joe finally figured out how to use him.
I rather trade Proctor.
According to Rumor Central at ESPN, Andy won't make a decision until Christmas. But, it also says that the Rockies are interested in Pavano.
And, Posada (so many Ps!) stated he wanted Pettitte back.
(Sorry if this has already been said)
destiNY
12-05-06, 12:57 PM
your future list is missing "Humberto Sanchez";)
I'm not convinced he'll be a starter yet, probable, but theres a chance he'll end up in the pen
He's more likely to be traded than the below pitchers
The other pitchers all started or had significant time in the Yankee system
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/12/05/yankees.pettitte/index.html?eref=si_mlb
Verducci keeps pumping up his Pettitte lead
<H2>Yankees close to Pettitte deal
Veteran lefty may delay retirement; news and notes
</H2>
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 12:58 PM
if we bring back andy, maybe the yanks don't try to sogn igawa. BUt i doubt they would do that because of bad blood. But he is the one i would like to get rid of first.
I would rather have pavano then igawa.
BRNXBMRS
12-05-06, 12:59 PM
If Pettitte were to return, he would probably want a one-year deal with a player option. That would be perfect for the Yankees, who would probably overpay for one year to maintain flexibility moving forward. The question now is whether the Yankees can convince Pettitte to leave Houston and return to New York.
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html
That'll work
if we bring back andy, maybe the yanks don't try to sogn igawa. BUt i doubt they would do that because of bad blood. But he is the one i would like to get rid of first.
I would rather have pavano then igawa.
Why? Pavano has better "stuff?" He always hurt and I don't think his teamates like him.
Our old friend Wayne Franklin has signed with the Royals with an ST Invite
gee whiz, the hot stove is white hot!
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 01:01 PM
Why? Pavano has better "stuff?" He always hurt and I don't think his teamates like him.My feeling is that he will have a good year, and overall the value returned if he is traded isn't worth trading him. WHy sell someone at their lowest?
Igawa, i don't have much faith, but I also don't know much.
was pettite offered arbitration.
was pettite offered arbitration.
No arby for Andy, Houston didn't risk it
jimmykey2
12-05-06, 01:04 PM
I rather trade Proctor.
Why on earth would you do that? That makes no sense.
Proctor = 2006 salary 300K, 102 IP, 125 ERA+
Farnsworth = 2006 salary 5.4 Million, 66 IP, 100 ERA+
I'd rather get out from under that silly contract.
if we bring back andy, maybe the yanks don't try to sogn igawa. BUt i doubt they would do that because of bad blood. But he is the one i would like to get rid of first.
I would rather have pavano then igawa.
Considering how angry Cashman was related to Pavano in the past, I doubt we will get rid of Igawa before Pavano.
BRNXBMRS
12-05-06, 01:07 PM
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by kan_t
I rather trade Proctor.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Why on earth would you do that? That makes no sense.
Proctor = 2006 salary 300K, 102 IP, 125 ERA+
Farnsworth = 2006 salary 5.4 Million, 66 IP, 100 ERA+
I'd rather get out from under that silly contract.
I dont get, Proctor was beyond valuable last year when he wasnt over worked.
Why on earth would you do that? That makes no sense.
Proctor = 2006 salary 300K, 102 IP, 125 ERA+
Farnsworth = 2006 salary 5.4 Million, 66 IP, 100 ERA+
I'd rather get out from under that silly contract.
I think Proctor's 06 performance is a fluke and he is overworked. I afraid he will face dead arm problem next year. We should sell him high. Other another hand, we are sell Farnsworth low.
Plus Proctor is cheap, and we should get more from him as he seems to be more attractive to other teams.
NelsonMuntz
12-05-06, 01:10 PM
You really think he's capable of that?
Even when healthy I question his ability to:
Pitch consistently into the 7th inning
Stay healthy thoughout the year
Average an ERA under 4.00 throughout the year
I just think he's one of those pitchers who are affected by age, whereas some are not (clemens)
I agree. I think RJ is cooked. FWIW, I think Clemens is done as well.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 01:33 PM
Rob Neyer's chat:
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Mike (chicago, IL): Rumors are flying about A-Rod for Garcia and Crede. Anything known about this?
<!-- displayed mode -->http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Rob Neyer: (12:47 PM ET ) All I know about this is the lopsided nature of the transaction. Unless the Yankees send along some money.
Has he lost his mind?
Neyer isn't stupid. My guess is he's being sarcastic.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 01:35 PM
if we bring back andy, maybe the yanks don't try to sogn igawa. BUt i doubt they would do that because of bad blood. But he is the one i would like to get rid of first.
I would rather have pavano then igawa.
Even if we have Pettitte, we could still use Igawa. Wang, Moose, Pettitte, Igawa, RJ/Pavano
Why would you rather have Pavano than Igawa? At least Igawa might give us something...
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 01:37 PM
If Andy is signed, Pavano is a goner...
If Andy is signed, Pavano is a goner...
Or Igawa ;)
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-05-06, 01:44 PM
Why on earth would you do that? That makes no sense.
Proctor = 2006 salary 300K, 102 IP, 125 ERA+
Farnsworth = 2006 salary 5.4 Million, 66 IP, 100 ERA+
I'd rather get out from under that silly contract.
Because Prcotor might have had a fluke season, and Farnsworth seems to have good seasons every other year.
jimmykey2
12-05-06, 02:13 PM
Because Prcotor might have had a fluke season, and Farnsworth seems to have good seasons every other year.
IMO, Proctor's stuff makes him a less likely candidate for a fluke season. He's not Shawn Chacon or Aaron Small who's trying to keep guys off balance and needs very good control to get guys out. Proctor is throwing one pitch (a hard fastball) and mixing in another. Unless you think the innings of 2006 will have a major effect on him, I only see decreased velocity as a reason he can't produce a similar season.
Farnsworth is being payed too much for a set-up man. Especially when he can only be depended on every other day, plus is prone to having back issues flare up a few times a season. Getting someone to take that money off their hands would be excellent for the Yanks.
IMO, Proctor's stuff makes him a less likely candidate for a fluke season. He's not Shawn Chacon or Aaron Small who's trying to keep guys off balance and needs very good control to get guys out. Proctor is throwing one pitch (a hard fastball) and mixing in another. Unless you think the innings of 2006 will have a major effect on him, I only see decreased velocity as a reason he can't produce a similar season.
Farnsworth is being payed too much for a set-up man. Especially when he can only be depended on every other day, plus is prone to having back issues flare up a few times a season. Getting someone to take that money off their hands would be excellent for the Yanks.
Agreed.
If we keep him, he has to prove by the trade deadline that he can set-up every day, or he's gone.
IrishDancer
12-05-06, 03:12 PM
If not Willis, who/what do the Yankees need at this point, from who might be available?
IMO Willis is exactly what the Yankees need at this point, just not at any cost.
This post is general and not personally directed at you. <p>
What we need is patience. If we don't win the 2007 World Series, how will that be different from the last several years??? Trading a boatload of young talent for Willis so that his arm can fall off in Yankee pinstripes is no way to run a baseball team. <p>
If you really want a left-handed young starter, get Sean Gallagher from the Cubs or any one of a dozen other strong lefties nearly ready for the majors in other organzations. Younger, cheaper, can be acquired in numbers raher than putting your eggs in one fragile basket. Also, use Igawa. See how Angel Reyes develops in our own systn. Ditto Chase Wright. <p>
This business of aching for a championship right this minute no matter what it costs for the future was how we have lost so many championships in recent years (and in the 1980s). We need to let the young pitchers develop in our minors, including but not limited to Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Tyler Clippard, Dellin Betances, Humberto Sanchez, Ian Kennedy, Tim Horton as starters, J.B. Cox, Mark Melancon, Steve Whelan, Anthony Claggett. We also need to advertise to the world that we value our young talent as no other team does so that draftees and international free agents will kill to sign Yankee contracts. <p>
Now we need to draft position players at catcher (in case Jesus Montero must play elsewhere or does not pan out) and many of them, 1B, 3B (for when A-Rod declines/not soon), SS for when Jeter declines (not soon), and slugging but strong-armed and speedy surehanded outfielders to join Tabata in the future. <p>
We will be ready when we are ready and not until. <p>
Establish total dominance in signing international young talent, with "charitable foundation" baseball academies as necessary in Latin America and the Pacific rim. Sign the Matsuzakas when they are 18 and genuine free agents. <p>
Also, scrap the myth that there is some limited "window of opportunity" for today's core that just requires us to squander young talent to win immediately. Squandering young talent is almost always a terrible idea. <p>
George Weiss understood that in the 1940s/1950s and the results showed in the standings of that dynasty. Weiss even established a side business of developing talent for other clubs (not squandering since our own needs were well met). He developed major league starting catchers Gus Triandos (Os), Hal Smith (Cards), the other Hal Smith (As), Sherm Lollar (WS), Les Moss (WS), Clint Courtney (Senators), Charley Silvera (Cubs) in addition to Yogi Berra, Ralph Houk, Elston Howard, and Johnny Blanchard. I have probably forgotten a few others. We also developed and sold 1B Vic Power (Indians), MVP OF Jackie Jensen (to Senators who sent him to the Red Sox), OF Whitey Herzog (As), OF Irv Noren (Senators), SP Lew Burdette (Braves), a raft of guys sent to the A's as our major league farm club for development and more whom I have forgotten. <p>
Irish Dancer's Daddy
gsnts725
12-05-06, 03:15 PM
Arod for Crede/Garcia should not be even considered at all. idk what the hell neyer is thinking, is he anti-yankee or anti-arod? lol
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 03:15 PM
If you really want a left-handed young starter, get Sean Gallagher from the Cubs or any one of a dozen other strong lefties nearly ready for the majors in other organzations. Younger, cheaper, can be acquired in numbers raher than putting your eggs in one fragile basket. Also, use Igawa. See how Angel Reyes develops in our own systn. Ditto Chase Wright.
Irish Dancer's Daddy
Sean Gallagher is a righty BTW, but I agree with most of what you said...
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 03:16 PM
I agree with irish man
I think neyer was being facetious, but it didn't come off that way.
No one with any baseball sense could think that was reasonable, especially with the yanks sending money,
IrishYankee
12-05-06, 03:19 PM
As do I, :)
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 03:27 PM
I was thinkin' about these deals for the Yankees...
A-Rod (if he waives his no-trade clause) to the White Sox for P Jon Garland and 3B Joe Crede (Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25.2 million dollar salary).
So, DEAL or NO DEAL?
Done in a New York, uh, Chicago minute.:D
Our "insider" here for ESPN 1000 is reporting the White Sox are trying to get some BP help from the Yanks.
Is Myers available? I'd take Fransworth too just next year is an odd numbered season. :P
Done in a New York, uh, Chicago minute.:D
Our "insider" here for ESPN 1000 is reporting the White Sox are trying to get some BP help from the Yanks.
Is Myers available? I'd take Fransworth too just next year is an odd numbered season. :P
I wonder who the Yanks are looking at. Garcia or Buehrle or prospects?
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 03:41 PM
Along with this deal? Hmmmm.
I want Joe Crede, Jon Garland, and a quality pitching prospect or two. I'll send you A-Rod, cash, and Kyle Farnsworth. You pay $10 of the $25.2 million of A-Rod's salary.
So, Deal or No Deal?That is a HORRIBLE trade for the yankees. HORRIBLE.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 03:41 PM
Arod for Crede/Garcia should not be even considered at all. idk what the hell neyer is thinking, is he anti-yankee or anti-arod? lol
He's not anti-ARod and although he is no Yankee fan, he'll be fair with what he belives in. Which is why I would assume he was being sarcastic... I think he'd be smarter than the comment he gave. (Remember, he also once sarcastically said that Pujols would be .280 hitter with 25 HR's in the AL and didn't mention he was being sarcastic until the next chat when he got all sorts of questions about it).
Snatch Catch
12-05-06, 03:41 PM
Along with this deal? Hmmmm.
I want Joe Crede, Jon Garland, and a quality pitching prospect or two. I'll send you A-Rod, cash, and Kyle Farnsworth. You pay $10 of the $25.2 million of A-Rod's salary.
So, Deal or No Deal?
This is one of the worst trade proposals I've seen. "You pay $10 of the $25.2 million of A-Rod's salary?" What does that even mean?
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 03:44 PM
I'm sorry, but since when is Joe Crede good? Career OPS+ of 95 at the ripe age of 28. Yes he had a good season last year, but his OPS+ was a whopping 108. The 3 years before that his OPS was a 96, 79, and a 94 respectively. So basically we'd be getting a below average 3rd baseman, an average starting pitcher, and a top notch pitching prospect (a thing the White Sox don't really have), for not only A-Rod but Farnsworth as well? And we pay money on top of that?
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 03:45 PM
He's not anti-ARod and although he is no Yankee fan, he'll be fair with what he belives in. Which is why I would assume he was being sarcastic... I think he'd be smarter than the comment he gave. (Remember, he also once sarcastically said that Pujols would be .280 hitter with 25 HR's in the AL and didn't mention he was being sarcastic until the next chat when he got all sorts of questions about it).
i am with you
and i prefer pavano, because of the proverbial "stuff" and the track record of japanese pitchers coming over here.
I think also pavano is coming back with alot to prove and is already working out harder then before.
I'm sorry, but since when is Joe Crede good? Career OPS+ of 95 at the ripe age of 28. Yes he had a good season last year, but his OPS+ was a whopping 108. The 3 years before that his OPS was a 96, 79, and a 94 respectively. So basically we'd be getting a below average 3rd baseman, an average starting pitcher, and a top notch pitching prospect (a thing the White Sox don't really have), for not only A-Rod but Farnsworth as well? And we pay money on top of that?
I'd do Myers for Garcia!!! ;)
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 03:46 PM
That is a HORRIBLE trade for the yankees. HORRIBLE.
I meant to say the Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25 million salary.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 03:47 PM
I meant to say the Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25 million salary.It's still horrible. You want the yankees to get RAPED in the trade AND ALSO pick up money LOL. You can't be serious...
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 03:49 PM
I'm sorry, but since when is Joe Crede good? Career OPS+ of 95 at the ripe age of 28. Yes he had a good season last year, but his OPS+ was a whopping 108. The 3 years before that his OPS was a 96, 79, and a 94 respectively. So basically we'd be getting a below average 3rd baseman, an average starting pitcher, and a top notch pitching prospect (a thing the White Sox don't really have), for not only A-Rod but Farnsworth as well? And we pay money on top of that?
I was jokin' on adding Kyle Farnsworth.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 03:50 PM
I was thinkin' about these deals for the Yankees...
A-Rod (if he waives his no-trade clause) to the White Sox for P Jon Garland and 3B Joe Crede (Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25.2 million dollar salary).
Sign P Barry Zito.
I say the Yankees make those deals.
Then, your rotation will be
1. Chien-Ming Wang
2. Jon Garland
3. Barry Zito
4. Mike Mussina
5. Randy Johnson
So, DEAL or NO DEAL?
NO DEAL!!!!
For many reasons. 1. Crede, in his career year, had an OBP of .324 and a career OBP of .308. He also has all sorts of back issues, and us Yankee fans should know what those will do to you.
2. Firstly, the Yankees only pay A-Rod something like $17 because Texas already pays $9M of his salary a year. But now we are throwing in an extra $10M? Is that 10M a year??? To pay any of his salary would be absurd. A-Rod, for $17M a year, is a steal already in this market.
3. I'm not a big fan of Garland. And he sure as hell wouldn't be our #2 in that rotation. Moose is certainly better than him. The guy did have a 4.51 ERA last year... And his K/9 is horrible at 4.77. He doesn't walk many guys, but his stuff really isn't that good.
4. Zito is overated and to sign him, it'll take an enormous deal. With Boras as his agent, and Texas willing to go 6/$102M, it's going to take at least a 6/$90M deal for him. Which, in Yankee money, is actually about 6/$130M because of the luxury tax.
5. Trading A-Rod for Crede and Garland wouldn't exactly save us much money - especially when considering that in your deal, we pay for some of A-Rod's salary...
In the end, trading A-Rod for one of the White Sox overated pitchers and the overated (by some here) Crede, makes this team worse.
I meant to say the Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25 million salary.
They don't even pay Arod $25 million (in addition to the fact that I wouldn't do that trade without any money exchanging hands)
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 03:52 PM
This is one of the worst trade proposals I've seen. "You pay $10 of the $25.2 million of A-Rod's salary?" What does that even mean?agreed, that is one of the worst i have ever seen, and remember we only pay arod 16 million. He is a bargain in this market
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 03:52 PM
NO DEAL!!!!
For many reasons. 1. Crede, in his career year, had an OBP of .324 and a career OBP of .308. He also has all sorts of back issues, and us Yankee fans should know what those will do to you.
2. Firstly, the Yankees only pay A-Rod something like $17 because Texas already pays $9M of his salary a year. But now we are throwing in an extra $10M? Is that 10M a year??? To pay any of his salary would be absurd. A-Rod, for $17M a year, is a steal already in this market.
3. I'm not a big fan of Garland. And he sure as hell wouldn't be our #2 in that rotation. Moose is certainly better than him. The guy did have a 4.51 ERA last year... And his K/9 is horrible at 4.77. He doesn't walk many guys, but his stuff really isn't that good.
4. Zito is overated and to sign him, it'll take an enormous deal. With Boras as his agent, and Texas willing to go 6/$102M, it's going to take at least a 6/$90M deal for him. Which, in Yankee money, is actually about 6/$130M because of the luxury tax.
5. Trading A-Rod for Crede and Garland wouldn't exactly save us much money - especially when considering that in your deal, we pay for some of A-Rod's salary...
In the end, trading A-Rod for one of the White Sox overated pitchers and the overated (by some here) Crede, makes this team worse.
Fine, I'm absolutely dreadfully terrible at making baseball decisions. Fire me from this thread!
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 03:53 PM
I was thinkin' about these deals for the Yankees...
A-Rod (if he waives his no-trade clause) to the White Sox for P Jon Garland and 3B Joe Crede (Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25.2 million dollar salary).
Sign P Barry Zito.
I say the Yankees make those deals. You free up money to sign Barry Zito.Arod for Garland and Crede is a HORRIBLE trade. Garland is nothing more then a no 4 starter and Crede is about as avg as it gets. There is NO WAY the yankees would think about doing that trade and there is NO reason to give Zito 95 million either when he's no more then a no 3 starter too.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 03:53 PM
I was jokin' on adding Kyle Farnsworth.
Even without Farnsworth it is one of the worst trade proposals I have ever heard, may God have mercy on your soul. ;)
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 03:53 PM
Fine, I'm absolutely dreadfully terrible at making baseball decisions.just this one time;)
I was thinkin' about these deals for the Yankees...
A-Rod (if he waives his no-trade clause) to the White Sox for P Jon Garland and 3B Joe Crede (Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25.2 million dollar salary).
Sign P Barry Zito.
I say the Yankees make those deals. You free up money to sign Barry Zito.
What money? WE DONT PAY AROD 25 MIL A YEAR. We pay him 16. So we save 6 mil a year on Arod, and Garland makes like 10 a year (I dont know what Crede makes, but add that on too), so we actually take on more salary (in addition to losing on the talent end of the deal as well)
I was thinkin' about these deals for the Yankees...
A-Rod (if he waives his no-trade clause) to the White Sox for P Jon Garland and 3B Joe Crede (Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25.2 million dollar salary).
Sign P Barry Zito.
I say the Yankees make those deals.
Then, your rotation will be
1. Chien-Ming Wang
2. Jon Garland
3. Barry Zito
4. Mike Mussina
5. Randy Johnson
You're shedding USD16MM (slightly less if the NYY throw in USD10MM over the life of Alex' contract) to take on approximately USD15MM for Zito and whatever Garland and Crede cost. But Crede doesn't come close to replacing Alex' offense and Garland isn't an ace. So for me, no deal. If I'd trade Alex, it would have to be for some combination of three to five young studs between the minors and a year or two in the show.
Yankees1962
12-05-06, 03:53 PM
I was thinkin' about these deals for the Yankees...
A-Rod (if he waives his no-trade clause) to the White Sox for P Jon Garland and 3B Joe Crede (Yankees pay $10 million of A-Rod's $25.2 million dollar salary).
Sign P Barry Zito.
I say the Yankees make those deals. You free up money to sign Barry Zito.
Thankfully, you're not the Yankee GM because that's all we need to do is tie up a bunch of money into a couple of pitchers that I rate as only above average.
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 03:54 PM
What money? WE DONT PAY AROD 25 MIL A YEAR. We pay him 16. So we save 6 mil a year on Arod, and Garland makes like 10 a year, so we actually take on more salary (in addition to losing on the talent end of the deal as well)
Ok, ok. I say No deal to my idea. You win. I'm terrible.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 03:54 PM
As i've been saying for months, the only places arod can go are the angels and dodgers.
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 03:56 PM
Thankfully, you're not the Yankee GM because that's all we need to do is tie up a bunch of money into a couple of pitchers that I rate as only above average.
Fine, I should stick to on-air baseball analysis in the Game Threads during the season.
Ok, ok. I say No deal to my idea. You win. I'm terrible.
Wooo Victory!
Seriously though, I just want Arod to tatoo how much the Yankees pay him on his forehead, I feel like people (not you) like to ignore it just for fun
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 03:59 PM
Jesus, like a bunch of Pirahnnas in a pool of blood. Vicious we are...
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 04:00 PM
You're shedding USD16MM (slightly less if the NYY throw in USD10MM over the life of Alex' contract) to take on approximately USD15MM for Zito and whatever Garland and Crede cost. But Crede doesn't come close to replacing Alex' offense and Garland isn't an ace. So for me, no deal. If I'd trade Alex, it would have to be for some combination of three to five young studs between the minors and a year or two in the show.
Ok. So, I got a lot of No Deals from this thread on this crazy idea. They win. I lose.
genius-24
12-05-06, 04:01 PM
haha,,,BB55...take it easy and so should the others.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:01 PM
I want arod traded to BB55 we just can't give him away for nothing.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 04:01 PM
Per rotoworld:
The Yankees and Mets are showing interest in Mark Buehrle, according to MLB.com.
MLB.com offered up a rumor last night that the Mets and White Sox had discussed swapping Buehrle and Lastings Milledge, but none of the New York or Chicago papers followed up on it, suggesting there wasn't much to it. The Yankees have Melky Cabrera to offer if the White Sox believe he can handle center field. Buehrle will become a free agent after making $9.5 million next season.
I'd like Buerhle but I'm guessing we'd have to throw in probably one of Britton or Proctor or Farnsworth...
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 04:02 PM
I want arod traded to BB55 we just can't give him away for nothing.
:roflmao: I don't own a team.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:02 PM
Proctor and Melky for Mark Buerhle.
Get it done Cashman.
(that trade will never happen)
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:02 PM
Per rotoworld:
I'd like Buerhle but I'm guessing we'd have to throw in probably one of Britton or Proctor or Farnsworth...We can get a better pitcher for Melky in my opinion. Buehrle is not a very good pitcher.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:03 PM
Proctor and Melky for Mark Buerhle.
Get it done Cashman.
(that trade will never happen)and it shouldn't.
Ok. So, I got a lot of No Deals from this thread on this crazy idea. They win. I lose.
It's not a competition. ;) You had a suggestion and most here don't agree with it. No big deal, right?
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:04 PM
We can get a better pitcher for Melky in my opinion. Buehrle is not a very good pitcher.
Are you serious? When did Melky become the next incarnation of Mickey Mantle? I'm not saying Buerhle was any good this year (he wasn't), but he has been one of the best lefthanders in baseball over the last few years. He's an innings eater who is going to give you a better than league average ERA.
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 04:05 PM
Jesus, like a bunch of Pirahnnas in a pool of blood. Vicious we are...
My deal proposal is worse than Proctor and Melky for Mark Buherle.
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 04:05 PM
It's not a competition. ;) You had a suggestion and most here don't agree with it. No big deal, right?
Yeah, no big deal.
I'd like Buerhle but I'm guessing we'd have to throw in probably one of Britton or Proctor or Farnsworth...
I like that Rotoworld feels that the reason that there's not much to the trade is that the papers haven't followed up on it. Rrriiight....that's why it's an accurate or inaccurate rumor.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:06 PM
Are you serious? When did Melky become the next incarnation of Mickey Mantle? I'm not saying Buerhle was any good this year (he wasn't), but he has been one of the best lefthanders in baseball over the last few years. He's an innings eater who is going to give you a better than league average ERA.He's a no 3 starter at best and he gets paid like a no 1. I'd MUCH rather have Andy Pettitte back here then this guy and his awful WHIP Baa and k9.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:07 PM
He's a no 3 starter at best and he gets paid like a no 1. I'd MUCH rather have Andy Pettitte back here then this guy and his awful WHIP Baa and k9.
What are you talking about? How is he getting paid like a number 1 starter? Not in this market. Not in any market. He's getting paid just as much as Jaret Wright. The only difference being that Mark Buerhle is actually good.
BroadwayBomber55
12-05-06, 04:07 PM
Proctor and Melky for Mark Buerhle.
Get it done Cashman.
(that trade will never happen)
Over my dead body. Proctor and Melky for Mark Buerhle?! No way.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:08 PM
What are you talking about? How is he getting paid like a number 1 starter? Not in this market. Not in any market. He's getting paid just as much as Jaret Wright. The only difference being that Mark Buerhle is actually good.He's getting paid 10 million and he's not worth that much. Thats alot more then wright is getting.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:10 PM
Proctor and Melky for Mark Buerhle.
Get it done Cashman.
(that trade will never happen)
I hope not. I don't like that deal at all... The fact that he had a 4.99 ERA last year is not a surprise given that he doesn't make any bats miss.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-05-06, 04:10 PM
Per rotoworld:
I'd like Buerhle but I'm guessing we'd have to throw in probably one of Britton or Proctor or Farnsworth...
Ill take Buehrle, he is a solid number 3.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:12 PM
People want to give Andy Pettite 15 million and they don't want to trade away Melky Cabrera and Scott Proctor for Mark Buerhle.
I don't get it. :dunno:
I think seriously people overrated Melky Cabrera here. Best case scenario is Juan Rivera. And Scott Proctor, who is a dime a dozen middle reliever.
aeromac76
12-05-06, 04:12 PM
The Arod to the White Sox proposals are craziness, period.
I am not adverse, as I have been saying all year long, to dealing Arod.
But to be honest, I am not dealing him on the low.
Whether he was booed, whether he was unclutch, whether he had a bad Arod season, this guy is still one of the most, if not all around the most, talented player in the game. And we pay him 16 mil a year, or just 2 million more than the Red Sox are likely to pay the immortal JD Drew if you want to really see his worth in today's market!
The White Sox want him? Fine. But Crede and Buerhle or Garcia do not get it done.
Crede is a nice start at third base for sure, but I would also desire a front end of the rotation starter for Arod. Buehrle and Garcia are solid middle of the rotation guys, of which we have plenty of.. They'd have to do better than that.
I am not sure they have the chips it would take..
Personally, I'd like to see what the LA area teams have to say, they seem to be loaded with young right now ready to play primetime players and pithcers (thinking of guys like Broxton and Weaver).
I personally think there are too many moving parts to a deal for Arod and we'll never get fair compensation, so if that is that, then we keep him and have the best thrid baseman on the planet and one of the 5 best hitters in the game when he is right. Fine by me..
genius-24
12-05-06, 04:13 PM
We dont really need Buhrle. He eats innings but also gives up tons of HR. He is not a big K guy. Last year was his off year but aquasition of Igawa sends the final red signal. Not to mention Petitte joining the yanks rumors are flying all over the place.
I hate trading Melky. He is part of our chemistry. Melky and Cano and their relationship did make ARod feel lot better. Many times i have seen three of them together. I have also read Melky and Cano compete against eachother in batting practice which further helps them get better and learn more about their weaknesses.
Also Abreau and Bernie were also part of that clubhouse chemistry.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-05-06, 04:13 PM
We can get a better pitcher for Melky in my opinion. Buehrle is not a very good pitcher.
To be honest Melky isnt that great of a prospect himself imo. No im not against players who arent all stars right away. I just think Melky overperformed last season and isnt going to be a great hitter.
Buehrle had a bad season last year but his ERAs in the previous years are: 3.12, 3.89, 4.14, 3.58, 3.29 and at least 200 ip each year.
In fact if Cashman gets Buehrle for something like Proctor and Melky it will be highway robbery with us getting the better end imo. Sounds too good to be true.
aeromac76
12-05-06, 04:14 PM
People want to give Andy Pettite 15 million and they don't want to trade away Melky Cabrera and Scott Proctor for Mark Buerhle.
I don't get it. :dunno:
I think seriously people overrated Melky Cabrera here. Best case scenario is Juan Rivera. And Scott Proctor, who is a dime a dozen middle reliever.
I agree with you, I would do this deal, we have stockpiled relievers this winter and have plenty of hard throwing righties in the pen. As for Melky, I like him, but he is not even an everyday player on this team right now, so if you can get Buerhle, do it. I don't want to hear Buerhle when talking about Arod, but for Melky and Proctor, yup..
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:15 PM
I hate trading Melky. He is part of our chemistry. Melky and Cano and their relationship did make ARod feel lot better. Many times i have seen three of them together. I have also read Melky and Cano compete against eachother in batting practice which further helps them get better and learn more about their weaknesses.
Also Abreau and Bernie were also part of that clubhouse chemistry.
I am not getting your point here. So, what you are saying is that if Bubba Crosby hangs out with Robinson Cano, that we shouldn't trade/release Bubba Crosby?
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:16 PM
To be honest Melky isnt that great of a prospect himself imo. No im not against players who arent all stars right away. I just think Melky overperformed last season and isnt going to be a great hitter.
Buehrle had a bad season last year but his ERAs in the previous years are: 3.12, 3.89, 4.14, 3.58, 3.29 and at least 200 ip each year.
In fact if Cashman gets Buehrle for something like Proctor and Melky it will be highway robbery with us getting the better end imo. Sounds too good to be true.Melky AND Proctor should bring back MUCH more then A lefty junkballer with a 5 ERA.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 04:17 PM
I hope not. I don't like that deal at all... The fact that he had a 4.99 ERA last year is not a surprise given that he doesn't make any bats miss.
He didn't last season, but the two seasons before then he was pretty decent. 6.05 and 5.97 in 04' and 05' respectively. He eats innings like no other either, and still relatively young. The last 5 seasons he has pitched 1154+ innings, the red flag to me though is his alledged decreased velocity this season, whether that is due to all those IP is another story...
just-blaze
12-05-06, 04:21 PM
When did Melky become the next incarnation of Mickey Mantle? .
When did Buehrle become the next incarnation of Sandy Koufax?:)
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:22 PM
When did Buehrle become the next incarnation of Sandy Koufax?:)Sandy Koufax? He's not even Jimmy Key...
genius-24
12-05-06, 04:24 PM
I am not getting your point here. So, what you are saying is that if Bubba Crosby hangs out with Robinson Cano, that we shouldn't trade/release Bubba Crosby?
May be u dont believe in chemistry. Bubba Crosby and Melky are two different players. They both had different careers. My point is if Melky is given adequte playing time he can perform just like last season due to the others intangible going his way. That's is wat i belive.
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 04:24 PM
I'm sorry, but since when is Joe Crede good? Career OPS+ of 95 at the ripe age of 28. Yes he had a good season last year, but his OPS+ was a whopping 108. The 3 years before that his OPS was a 96, 79, and a 94 respectively. So basically we'd be getting a below average 3rd baseman, an average starting pitcher, and a top notch pitching prospect (a thing the White Sox don't really have), for not only A-Rod but Farnsworth as well? And we pay money on top of that?
I haven't heard or read anything that indicates A-Rod would be included with Yankee bullpen arms.
First off, Garcia is far from "average" he'd be your #3 maybe #2. I think Joe Crede is the most overrated White Sox players by White Sox fans. I consider him to be an above average third baseman because his defense is at the top in the game. He's always shown the power to hit home runs, but he has also always shown a lack of plate discipline. He doesn't walk much, and doesn't strike out much because he pops up a lot of first pitches. His back issue is a major concern, and his agent is Boras. If I'm Ken Williams this winter, I sell high on him.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:25 PM
May be u dont believe in chemistry. Bubba Crosby and Melky are two different players. They both had different careers. My point is if Melky is given adequte playing time he can perform just like last season due to the others intangible going his way. That's is wat i belive.
Different careers? Melky has played exactly one full year and was an average corner outfielder at best.
Heyman on the Michael Kay show slotted the chances of Pettitte signing with the Yankees at 70%.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-05-06, 04:27 PM
Melky AND Proctor should bring back MUCH more then A lefty junkballer with a 5 ERA.
You are right, it will be back a left handed solid number 2 pitcher with a career 3.83 ERA a 3.12 ERA in 05 and a era of 3.89 in 04 and at least 200 ip in his last 6 season. All pitchers have bad years.
Haywood2K6
12-05-06, 04:27 PM
Buehrle has fallen off completely, if we gave up anything more than a bag of balls for this guy than Cashman is completely lost, hes now throwing an 85 MPH Fastball and is leaving everything over the middle of the plate, he had a Randy-like 5 ERA last season and would be nothing more than adding on the mediocrity we already have.
genius-24
12-05-06, 04:28 PM
Different careers? Melky has played exactly one full year and was an average corner outfielder at best.
I am comparing Bubba to Melky not Melky to others. He may be average or w/e but u still have to consider that he has only played 1 yr. IMO i would even ignore last Sep. due to him not having a specific role in the roster, b/c of Matsui and Sheff coming back.
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 04:28 PM
Buehrle is not a very good pitcher.
Based on what? A horrible second half?
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:28 PM
To be honest Melky isnt that great of a prospect himself imo. No im not against players who arent all stars right away. I just think Melky overperformed last season and isnt going to be a great hitter.
Buehrle had a bad season last year but his ERAs in the previous years are: 3.12, 3.89, 4.14, 3.58, 3.29 and at least 200 ip each year.
In fact if Cashman gets Buehrle for something like Proctor and Melky it will be highway robbery with us getting the better end imo. Sounds too good to be true.
I don't know why you think that (about Melky overperforming). Every scouting report that you could read has said that he projects as a high BA hitter. That should, in turn, translate into high OBP as we know for a fact that he is patient.
His K/9 has gone down the last since 2004 and it wasn't that great to begin with - certainly not ace level.
Proctor has a lot of value in this market. Melky has some value too as he's a productive player and is cheap and most people think will only get better.
I see no reason to trade those guys for a back end starter. If Buerhle was an ace, I'd be all for it. But, IMO, he's not.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 04:30 PM
I haven't heard or read anything that indicates A-Rod would be included with Yankee bullpen arms.
It was in response to a poster above, not any rumor....
First off, Garcia is far from "average" he'd be your #3 maybe #2. I think Joe Crede is the most overrated White Sox players by White Sox fans. I consider him to be an above average third baseman because his defense is at the top in the game. He's always shown the power to hit home runs, but he has also always shown a lack of plate discipline. He doesn't walk much, and doesn't strike out much because he pops up a lot of first pitches. His back issue is a major concern, and his agent is Boras. If I'm Ken Williams this winter, I sell high on him.
And it also included Garland not Garcia. So I wasn't talking about Garcia...
Haywood2K6
12-05-06, 04:30 PM
Based on what? A horrible second half?
I'd base it on the fact that he leaves everything over the plate and is throwing meatballs coming it at a peak of 85 to players on a regular basis. If Mark comes to the AL East, he will have a 6 ERA.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:30 PM
Based on what? A horrible second half?
His decreasing K/9, to a very low 4.32 last year, would have me concerned.
In all honesty, I'd rather take back the cheaper McCarthy in a deal.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-05-06, 04:30 PM
I don't know why you think that (about Melky overperforming). Every scouting report that you could read has said that he projects as a high BA hitter. That should, in turn, translate into high OBP as we know for a fact that he is patient.
His K/9 has gone down the last since 2004 and it wasn't that great to begin with - certainly not ace level.
Proctor has a lot of value in this market. Melky has some value too as he's a productive player and is cheap and most people think will only get better.
I see no reason to trade those guys for a back end starter. If Buerhle was an ace, I'd be all for it. But, IMO, he's not.
That is where we disagree. Buehrle isnt a back end starter imo. Maybe he had a bad year last year but his 5 good seasons before that count more imo.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:31 PM
Based on what? A horrible second half?Based on awful WHIP BAA k9 and h9. Thats what happens when a pitcher with a abnormally low BABIP for a number of years has a correction.
Haywood2K6
12-05-06, 04:31 PM
His decreasing K/9, to a very low 4.32 last year, would have me concerned.
In all honesty, I'd rather take back the cheaper McCarthy in a deal.
You will need to give up A LOT for McCarthy, Melky + Proctor wouldn't come close.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:32 PM
Different careers? Melky has played exactly one full year and was an average corner outfielder at best.
Well, offensively, he'd probably be a bit below average offensively, although if he raises his BA 20 points to .300 (not something I would be surprised about) and his OBP subsequentally went up 20 points to .380, he'd be a productive player. His defense is also very good in LF. But those guys, making the minimum, have a good amount of value.
Last season Buerhle, a proven innings- eater who has posted a sub 4 era on many occasions in the AL, would have garnered top prospects in any deal. Now people are complaining about giving up a 4th outfielder and a reliever who's elbow was making funny noises a few months back.
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 04:33 PM
I don't know why you think that (about Melky overperforming). Every scouting report that you could read has said that he projects as a high BA hitter. That should, in turn, translate into high OBP as we know for a fact that he is patient.
His K/9 has gone down the last since 2004 and it wasn't that great to begin with - certainly not ace level.
Proctor has a lot of value in this market. Melky has some value too as he's a productive player and is cheap and most people think will only get better.
I see no reason to trade those guys for a back end starter. If Buerhle was an ace, I'd be all for it. But, IMO, he's not.
For God's sake, what is the obsession with K/9? Would you rather have positive results, or a high K/9? How's RJ's K/9 compare to the rest of the league? Farnsworth?
Buehrle is a smart pitcher. He throws pitches that batters chase and hit weak ground balls or popups. He doesn't need to blow everyone away otherwise he wouldn't be able to go 6+ innings for 51 consecutive starts, or throw 230+ quality innings.
His second half last season throws a red flag up for me, but he is still a great pitcher. Durable, keeps your team in the game, saves the bullpen precious innings, and knows how to be a winning pitcher.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:33 PM
I'd base it on the fact that he leaves everything over the plate and is throwing meatballs coming it at a peak of 85 to players on a regular basis. If Mark comes to the AL East, he will have a 6 ERA.
Umm... you are aware that the Al Central was the best division in baseball, no? The best offensive division in baseball, too?
Buerhle had a great first half and then a godawful second half. In April, May, June, he had a 3.23 ERA. After that, he just fell off.
Pretty much the exact same thing happened to Pettite.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-05-06, 04:34 PM
Based on awful WHIP BAA k9 and h9. Thats what happens when a pitcher with a abnormally low BABIP for a number of years has a correction.
So you are telling me Buehrle was lucky for 5 straight seasons before 06?(Ill continue this tommorow I got to go to work)
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:34 PM
That is where we disagree. Buehrle isnt a back end starter imo. Maybe he had a bad year last year but his 5 good seasons before that count more imo.
Wouldn't his K/9 going from 6.05 to 5.67 to 4.32 worry you?
Haywood2K6
12-05-06, 04:35 PM
Umm... you are aware that the Al Central was the best division in baseball, no? The best offensive division in baseball, too?
Buerhle had a great first half and then a godawful second half. In April, May, June, he had a 3.23 ERA. After that, he just fell off.
Pretty much the exact same thing happened to Pettite.
So what makes you think he will magically revert back to his old form? Sorry but when his fastball is coming across the plate at 85, he won't last a season in the AL East. BTW, the AL East still has better lineups than the AL Central, don't kid yourself there, the pitching is much better in the Central but that is it.
genius-24
12-05-06, 04:35 PM
Umm... you are aware that the Al Central was the best division in baseball, no? The best offensive division in baseball, too?
Buerhle had a great first half and then a godawful second half. In April, May, June, he had a 3.23 ERA. After that, he just fell off.
Pretty much the exact same thing happened to Pettite.
Burhrle's numbers are also bad against AL east teams.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:36 PM
Based on awful WHIP BAA k9 and h9. Thats what happens when a pitcher with a abnormally low BABIP for a number of years has a correction.
How was his BABIP abnormal? In 2005 it was .295, in 2004 it was .299, in 2003 it was .301, in 2002 it was .282. If anything he got unlucky in 2006 when he had a .313 BABIP.
So what exactly are you talking about? Any factual basis for saying this?
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 04:36 PM
Based on awful WHIP BAA k9 and h9. Thats what happens when a pitcher with a abnormally low BABIP for a number of years has a correction.
Give me a break.
Last year WAS THE ABNORMAL year. I thought BABIP was out of the pitcher's control and couldn't be replicated consistently on a yearly basis??? :dunno:
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_7_20061001.png
With the exception of 2001, he looks right around the MLB average to me. :-google-:
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:38 PM
For God's sake, what is the obsession with K/9? Would you rather have positive results, or a high K/9? How's RJ's K/9 compare to the rest of the league? Farnsworth?
Buehrle is a smart pitcher. He throws pitches that batters chase and hit weak ground balls or popups. He doesn't need to blow everyone away otherwise he wouldn't be able to go 6+ innings for 51 consecutive starts, or throw 230+ quality innings.
His second half last season throws a red flag up for me, but he is still a great pitcher. Durable, keeps your team in the game, saves the bullpen precious innings, and knows how to be a winning pitcher.
It's a good stat to indicate continued success - especially with a defense like the Yankees, which isn't great. A lot of balls in play = a lot more chance of them finding holes or the defense not being able to get to them.
K/9 isn't the only thing of course. RJ and Farnsworth give up a lot of HR's (and Farnsworth also walks a lot of people). Those things all matter.
Buehrle's K/9 decreasing, to me, indicates that his stuff has gotten worse. Him making less bats miss=stuff getting worse IMO. I can't figure out why else he would K less batters. And, don't you see the correlation with his K/9 last year going way down and his ERA going way up? That's one of the reasons I'm bringing it up so much with Buehrle. Was he not smart enough last year or something?
He's durable and gives you innings - I'll give you that.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:38 PM
How was his BABIP abnormal? In 2005 it was .295, in 2004 it was .299, in 2003 it was .301, in 2002 it was .282. If anything he got unlucky in 2006 when he had a .313 BABIP.
So what exactly are you talking about? Any factual basis for saying this?Contact pitchers ALWAYS have this kind of correction because the difference between hits and outs is so small and guys whos stuff isn't good enough to get outs with are never guys you'd want to give up alot for.
Give me a break.
Last year WAS THE ABNORMAL year. I thought BABIP was out of the pitcher's control and couldn't be replicated consistently on a yearly basis??? :dunno:
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_7_20061001.png
With the exception of 2001, he looks right around the MLB average to me. :-google-:
FACTS ! FACTS ! THEY'RE NO GOOD HERE! TAKE THEM AWAY! ;)
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:39 PM
So what makes you think he will magically revert back to his old form? Sorry but when his fastball is coming across the plate at 85, he won't last a season in the AL East. BTW, the AL East still has better lineups than the AL Central, don't kid yourself there, the pitching is much better in the Central but that is it.
What lineups? Mark Buerhle won't have to face the Yankees if he is traded to the Yankees!
Red Sox - 820 runs
Blue Jays - 809 runs
Baltimore - 768 runs
Tampa Bay - 689
Minnesota - 801
Detroit - 822
Cleveland - 870
Kansas City - 757
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 04:39 PM
Burhrle's numbers are also bad against AL east teams.The yankees have always murdered him along with most good teams.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 04:41 PM
What exactly is everyone debating? Whether Buerhle is like a 4-5 guy or a 2-3 guy? Or is Buerhle worth Melky +( maybe a Proctor or Farnsworth or Britton)? Or is Buerhle worth Melky alone?
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:43 PM
People want to give Andy Pettite 15 million and they don't want to trade away Melky Cabrera and Scott Proctor for Mark Buerhle.
I don't get it. :dunno:
I think seriously people overrated Melky Cabrera here. Best case scenario is Juan Rivera. And Scott Proctor, who is a dime a dozen middle reliever.
Andy Pettitte>Mark Buerhle... What's not to get?
As for the $$, Buerhle will make $9.5M this year, or $5.5M less than Pettitte (if he got $15M).
Now, lets say that they were equal pitchers (I don't believe they are, but for the sake of this argument for the $$, we'll say so)... You are going to have to get a 4th outfielder and you are going to have to get a 7th inning setup pitcher. You think you're going to get both those guys, that are as good as what Melky (good defense, .370 OBP, .400 SLG), and Proctor for that amount of money? Not a chance in hell.
And to call Proctor a "dime a dozen reliever" is just wrong. He was better than Danys Baez last year and Baez got a 3/$18M deal...
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 04:45 PM
Wouldn't his K/9 going from 6.05 to 5.67 to 4.32 worry you?
Let's look at some of these fun graphs I found from google:
The almighty K/9
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_1_20061001.png
He's below it.
BB/9:
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_2_20061001.png
WAY below. (But that's a good thing)
K/BB
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_3_20061001.png
Above, however last year he dipped to average, but it was a BAD season.
WHIP:
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_6_20061001.png
Below average (good thing)
ERA:
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/225_P_season_full_0_20061001.png
Below average.
Yeah, who wants a guy who posts a WHIP, ERA, K/BB, and BB/9 better than the league average if his K/9 is below average? :confused: :-whistle-
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 04:46 PM
Chart nerd ;)
cmaff05
12-05-06, 04:48 PM
Andy Pettitte>Mark Buerhle... What's not to get?
How is he better? Pettite posted a stinker year in the NL and Buerhle posted a stinker year in the AL.
As for the $$, Buerhle will make $9.5M this year, or $5.5M less than Pettitte (if he got $15M).
Are you telling me that there is a 6 million dollar difference in quality between the two.
Now, lets say that they were equal pitchers (I don't believe they are, but for the sake of this argument for the $$, we'll say so)... You are going to have to get a 4th outfielder and you are going to have to get a 7th inning setup pitcher. You think you're going to get both those guys, that are as good as what Melky (good defense, .370 OBP, .400 SLG), and Proctor for that amount of money? Not a chance in hell.
Wow, you can't find .750 OPS fourth outfielders anywhere. Nowhere. They are impossible to find.
And to call Proctor a "dime a dozen reliever" is just wrong. He was better than Danys Baez last year and Baez got a 3/$18M deal...
He had a career year.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:48 PM
Cuban, you're missing what I was saying I think. I never said K/9 is the only thing. Walk rate and G/F ratios are also extremely important. But the point is that when your K/9 is going lower and lower, that usually indicates things are getting worse.
So looking at those charts mean nothing when responding to that particular post. For a certain pitcher, it is not a good sign for you to start striking out less batters (unless it goes with you walking much less batters).
I even explained to you why I kept on talking about his K/9 here:
"It's a good stat to indicate continued success - especially with a defense like the Yankees, which isn't great. A lot of balls in play = a lot more chance of them finding holes or the defense not being able to get to them.
K/9 isn't the only thing of course. RJ and Farnsworth give up a lot of HR's (and Farnsworth also walks a lot of people). Those things all matter.
Buehrle's K/9 decreasing, to me, indicates that his stuff has gotten worse. Him making less bats miss=stuff getting worse IMO. I can't figure out why else he would K less batters. And, don't you see the correlation with his K/9 last year going way down and his ERA going way up? That's one of the reasons I'm bringing it up so much with Buehrle. Was he not smart enough last year or something?
He's durable and gives you innings - I'll give you that."
genius-24
12-05-06, 04:50 PM
Now lets compare RJ's whole career...
just-blaze
12-05-06, 04:53 PM
First off, Garcia is far from "average" he'd be your #3 maybe #2.
Umm....not to pick a fight but where would he slot in the Sox rotation?
And....I would slot Wang/Moose over him easily and depending how Unit rebounds after the surgery behind him fighting with an "ideal" Carl Pavano for the 4 slot.
just-blaze
12-05-06, 04:56 PM
You will need to give up A LOT for McCarthy, Melky + Proctor wouldn't come close.
What is "A LOT"? You mean like Garcia and Crede for ARod.
That's alot to give up.:)
I like McCarthy but he is comparable to our own Clippard in terms of stuff.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 04:57 PM
How is he better? Pettite posted a stinker year in the NL and Buerhle posted a stinker year in the AL.
Is a 4.20 ERA that bad in the NL? He's better because Andy has an advantage in every single important pitching stat that indicates future success. Better K/9, better K/BB, better G/F...
Are you telling me that there is a 6 million dollar difference in quality between the two.
I don't know what the $$ difference is between them. I do know that I'd rather the Yankees gave up just the extra $5.5M than the two players.
Wow, you can't find .750 OPS fourth outfielders anywhere. Nowhere. They are impossible to find.
Stick with the actual point. You give me that 4th outfielder as good as Melky and the reliever that will do what Proctor will do next year for $5.5M. Wait, I got the outfielder for you. Frank Catalonotto. Damnit though - he already signed a contract for 3 years and $13.5M... And that reliever? Danys Baez I already gave you, but he is also signed for 3/$18M. Both were grade A FA's too...
And that, by the way, doesn't even get into the fact that both Proctor and Melky are cheap for not just next year, but for many years to come.
He had a career year.
Well, he had his first year as an everyday reliever in the ML's... I don't know how you're so sure that he won't repeat it. He had very good numbers too with very good stuff. Usually guys with a nice breaking ball and a 97 MPH fastball don't just fizzle away when they don't walk that many.
nnysiny
12-05-06, 05:03 PM
Chart nerd ;)
i like them
goin for 27
12-05-06, 05:04 PM
Wouldn't his K/9 going from 6.05 to 5.67 to 4.32 worry you?
They worry me a little, but look at Wang. He declined from 3.6 two years ago to 3.1 last year. And both numbers are way below Buehrle....:eek:
It's working out for him....Anyhow, I guess it is a factor, but there are many others. With what is on the market, this would be a good pickup.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 05:04 PM
Is a 4.20 ERA that bad in the NL? He's better because Andy has an advantage in every single important pitching stat that indicates future success. Better K/9, better K/BB, better G/F...
I don't know what the $$ difference is between them. I do know that I'd rather the Yankees gave up just the extra $5.5M than the two players.
Stick with the actual point. You give me that 4th outfielder as good as Melky and the reliever that will do what Proctor will do next year for $5.5M. Wait, I got the outfielder for you. Frank Catalonotto. Damnit though - he already signed a contract for 3 years and $13.5M... And that reliever? Danys Baez I already gave you, but he is also signed for 3/$18M. Both were grade A FA's too...
And that, by the way, doesn't even get into the fact that both Proctor and Melky are cheap for not just next year, but for many years to come.
Well, he had his first year as an everyday reliever in the ML's... I don't know how you're so sure that he won't repeat it. He had very good numbers too with very good stuff. Usually guys with a nice breaking ball and a 97 MPH fastball don't just fizzle away when they don't walk that many.
I'm not going to argue with you about Andy Pettite because I know you have a soft spot for Pettite. I could try and prove you wrong, and don't get me wrong, I like Pettite too. But Buerhle and Pettite are very comparable. Very comparable.
I just don't see much value in Melky going forward. If we can deal him, we should. The Yankees have Matsui and Damon locked up for the next few years. I have doubts of Melky being anymore more than a 4th outfielder. While it would be nice to have a good 4th outfielder, if we can package him in a deal and not get raped I would welcome the deal. Same thing with Proctor. I think he got very lucky this year. I don't think he'll ever touch this year again.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-05-06, 05:05 PM
i like them
Me too, they were cool...:gulp:
EDIT: cmaff sorry but pettitte...
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 05:08 PM
They worry me a little, but look at Wang. He declined from 3.6 two years ago to 3.1 last year. And both numbers are way below Buehrle....:eek:
It's working out for him....Anyhow, I guess it is a factor, but there are many others. With what is on the market, this would be a good pickup.
Wang has got to be thought of a bit differently because he gets SO many groundballs. And I'm still worried about his K/9, because it would be such a rarity for him to have continued success with that low of a K rate, but, unlike Buerhle, he won't need as many K's to succeed because of that G/F ratio.
So for Buerhle, if his K/9 had gone down like that, but he was walking less guys and he was getting some more grounders and all that, I'd be much less concerned. But the fact is those numbers didn't get any better and his ERA subsequentally went way up. That, to me, sends up some red flags.
NelsonMuntz
12-05-06, 05:14 PM
I just don't see much value in Melky going forward. If we can deal him, we should. The Yankees have Matsui and Damon locked up for the next few years. I have doubts of Melky being anymore more than a 4th outfielder. While it would be nice to have a good 4th outfielder, if we can package him in a deal and not get raped I would welcome the deal. Same thing with Proctor. I think he got very lucky this year. I don't think he'll ever touch this year again.
But he's valuable to the Yankees as a 4th outfielder. Damon missed a lot of time last season and he's only getting older. Matsui is coming back from a significant wrist injury. Plus we will need another outfielder in 2008 (assuming Abreu leaves) and the Yankees farm system isn't exactly loaded with outfield prospects at the upper levels.
JeffWeaverFan
12-05-06, 05:15 PM
I'm not going to argue with you about Andy Pettite because I know you have a soft spot for Pettite. I could try and prove you wrong, and don't get me wrong, I like Pettite too. But Buerhle and Pettite are very comparable. Very comparable.
I just don't see much value in Melky going forward. If we can deal him, we should. The Yankees have Matsui and Damon locked up for the next few years. I have doubts of Melky being anymore more than a 4th outfielder. While it would be nice to have a good 4th outfielder, if we can package him in a deal and not get raped I would welcome the deal. Same thing with Proctor. I think he got very lucky this year. I don't think he'll ever touch this year again.
They are comparable, that's fair. But Buerhle has those red flags that I mentioned in my last post. I like Pettitte of course. I watched him for many years and I am a Pettitte fan. The fact that signing him wouldn't cost us any players (in a trade), or our first round draft pick, and it would probably only take 1 year, 2 at max, makes this a no brainer for me.
Well, you want to sell high with Proctor, and I understand that. And with Melky, you don't see him anymore as a 4th outfielder, and I won't even deny that that might be the case. If he can be a .300/.380/.440 hitter, which is definitely in the realm of possibilities given that it's not much of an increase from what he did this year as a 21 year old, I think he'd be a fine LFer - when counting in his defense. He certainly would put up good offense as a CFer...
And Melky does have some high value for the Yankees this year. He's going to do a lot of good things defensively as a 4th outfielder and he'll give guys days off and be a fine player on those days.
Anyways, my original point with selling high on Proctor is I think you can get a lot back for him right now if you added in Melky - more than Buehrle, who is a guy that I have concerns with. Find a team that needs a closer or 8th inning guy, and they'll give you something good for Proctor.
Compared to the stupid signing by Texas of Padilla, which now means that Lillly and Meche are getting 3/36, or 4/50, and Zito is getting his 6 or 7 year deal for 15 million+ per year, Penny makes a lot of sense (and dollars to!!)
Only at the right price (which means no Sanchez, Whelan, and a few others).
Cuban Connection
12-05-06, 05:31 PM
Umm....not to pick a fight but where would he slot in the Sox rotation?
And....I would slot Wang/Moose over him easily and depending how Unit rebounds after the surgery behind him fighting with an "ideal" Carl Pavano for the 4 slot.
Proabably #4. I have no idea how McCarthy will perform in the starter's role after wasting a season in the bullpen.
17-8, 4.51 ERA, 216.1 IP, 1.276 WHIP low walk total. Oh yeah, he did in a "down" year after throwing 250 innings the year before which included a complete game in the ALCS and 7 shut out innings in the World Series clincher. You can toss the WBC excuse on there too if you want, but I won't.
Another interesting note about Garcia was him experimenting with a split finger pitch at the end of the year. He was great in September and nearly threw a perfect game.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 06:18 PM
Sandy Koufax? He's not even Jimmy Key...
Actually, Buehrle is Jimmy Key. Key's career ERA+ is 122. Buehrle's is 121.
Now tell me you wouldn't trade Melky and Proctor for Jimmy Key. And I'll tell you to pass the Kool Aid.
ABCBaseball
12-05-06, 06:23 PM
Actually, Buehrle is Jimmy Key. Key's career ERA+ is 122. Buehrle's is 121.
Now tell me you wouldn't trade Melky and Proctor for Jimmy Key. And I'll tell you to pass the Kool Aid.Burhrle's k9 is awful enough to not trade for him for that reason alone. K's was never that bad.
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 06:27 PM
pettite is aided in the fact that it is low commitement and costs us nothing, that is huge
Spiker101
12-05-06, 06:37 PM
Andy Pettitte>Mark Buerhle... What's not to get?
As for the $$, Buerhle will make $9.5M this year, or $5.5M less than Pettitte (if he got $15M).
Now, lets say that they were equal pitchers (I don't believe they are, but for the sake of this argument for the $$, we'll say so)... You are going to have to get a 4th outfielder and you are going to have to get a 7th inning setup pitcher. You think you're going to get both those guys, that are as good as what Melky (good defense, .370 OBP, .400 SLG), and Proctor for that amount of money? Not a chance in hell.
And to call Proctor a "dime a dozen reliever" is just wrong. He was better than Danys Baez last year and Baez got a 3/$18M deal...
Andy's career ERA+ is 119, Buehrle's is 121. Andy is seven years older than Buehrle. Andy is an extreme injury risk. Buehrle has never had a serious injury. I think you have your arrow pointed in the wrong direction.
You may or may not be right about Proctor. He's 30 now and has had one productive major league season. He's a total crapshot.
I give you trying to talk realistically about Melky. There are some around here who are infected with Melkitis and it's apparently incurable. But the bottom line is if at 12 noon tomorrow the Sox offer Buehrle for Melky and Proctor, the deal get consumated at 12:00.07 p.m. And the seven second delay is only because Cashman has to let out a whoop of joy first.
cmaff05
12-05-06, 06:39 PM
Andy's career ERA+ is 119, Buehrle's is 121. Andy is seven years older than Buehrle. Andy is an extreme injury risk. Buehrle has never had a serious injury. I think you have your arrow pointed in the wrong direction.
You may or may not be right about Proctor. He's 30 now and has had one productive major league season. He's a total crapshot.
I give you trying to talk realistically about Melky. There are some around here who are infected with Melkitis and it's apparently incurable. But the bottom line is if at 12 noon tomorrow the Sox offer Buehrle for Melky and Proctor, the deal get consumated at 12:00.07 p.m. And the seven second delay is only because Cashman has to let out a whoop of joy first.
:roflmao:
Amen.
bambam51
12-05-06, 06:39 PM
Andy's career ERA+ is 119, Buehrle's is 121. Andy is seven years older than Buehrle. Andy is an extreme injury risk. Buehrle has never had a serious injury. I think you have your arrow pointed in the wrong direction.
You may or may not be right about Proctor. He's 30 now and has had one productive major league season. He's a total crapshot.
I give you trying to talk realistically about Melky. There are some around here who are infected with Melkitis and it's apparently incurable. But the bottom line is if at 12 noon tomorrow the Sox offer Buehrle for Melky and Proctor, the deal get consumated at 12:00.07 p.m. And the seven second delay is only because Cashman has to let out a whoop of joy first.
ChiSox can get more than Melky/Proctor for Buehrle.
Andy's career ERA+ is 119, Buehrle's is 121. Andy is seven years older than Buehrle. Andy is an extreme injury risk. Buehrle has never had a serious injury. I think you have your arrow pointed in the wrong direction.
You may or may not be right about Proctor. He's 30 now and has had one productive major league season. He's a total crapshot.
I give you trying to talk realistically about Melky. There are some around here who are infected with Melkitis and it's apparently incurable. But the bottom line is if at 12 noon tomorrow the Sox offer Buehrle for Melky and Proctor, the deal get consumated at 12:00.07 p.m. And the seven second delay is only because Cashman has to let out a whoop of joy first.
Can you link me to Buehrle's career stats, please, amico mio?
Spiker101
12-05-06, 06:46 PM
pettite is aided in the fact that it is low commitement and costs us nothing, that is huge
Pettitte wouldn't cost the Yanks prospects. But in all liklihood Pettitte will get a deal giving him a player option for a second year. Buehrle will be in his walk year, so if the Yanks don't want him back they don't have to have him back.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 06:48 PM
Can you link me to Buehrle's career stats, please, amico mio?
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buehrma01.shtml
Dr. Gonzo
12-05-06, 06:49 PM
Pettitte wouldn't cost the Yanks prospects. But in all liklihood Pettitte will get a deal giving him a player option for a second year. Buehrle will be in his walk year, so if the Yanks don't want him back they don't have to have him back.who cares about giving pettie a player option.
If anything buehrle being in a walk year stinks. We have to give up talent for a one year player, who if he stays will cost us a ton and be a long commitement.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 06:50 PM
ChiSox can get more than Melky/Proctor for Buehrle.
Of course they can, if they even want to trade him, which is doubtful. The guy they want to deal is Garcia. I'm just responding to the lunacy that the Melky and Proctor are too much to pay for one of the best control lefties in the game. For god's sake, the Yanks just bid $26 million for a guy who dreams at night that one day he'll half as good as Buehrle.
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buehrma01.shtml
Thanks, amico mio.
Sign him AND Andy. :)
cmaff05
12-05-06, 06:52 PM
From Soxtalk.com regarding the White Sox
They just had a little interview with Williams on CSN. Said he and Cashman were talking till almost 2 last night, and couldnt find any sort of match. Williams said he doesnt see any sort of deals coming from NY
Spiker101
12-05-06, 06:55 PM
who cares about giving pettie a player option.
If anything buehrle being in a walk year stinks. We have to give up talent for a one year player, who if he stays will cost us a ton and be a long commitement.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you just say one of the advantages to signing Pettitte is that he would be a low commitment player. Andy would be a longer commitment than Buehrle. We'd have to give up talent, but it's talent that's easily replaced. In fact, I think Kevin Thompson would probably give you what Melky is likely to give you. As for Proctor, I just can't shake the feeling that last season was the proverbial career year for him. He'll never touch it again, but middle relievers are always available on the free agent market, and I'm not convinced the Yanks don't already have his replacement in Bruney. If they re-sign Dotel there might not even be a spot for Proctor and he'll have to be traded anyway.
CallOfTheCrow
12-05-06, 06:57 PM
I'm not sure if the Yanks are going to be able to re-sign Dotel because the Injuns, Red Sox, & D-Rays are interested in making him their closer.
indianyanksfan
12-05-06, 07:07 PM
so wait are the yanks interested in andy/burhle?
what's going on?
Spiker101
12-05-06, 07:07 PM
Burhrle's k9 is awful enough to not trade for him for that reason alone. K's was never that bad.
I've got Jimmy Key at 5.34 Ks per nine. And Buehrle at 5.22. Are my numbers wrong, or do you think bit difference is significant of anything? Mark Buehrle is the reincarnation of Jimmy Key, which is exactly why the Yanks won't be getting him for a package of Melky and Proctor.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 07:10 PM
I'm not sure if the Yanks are going to be able to re-sign Dotel because the Injuns, Red Sox, & D-Rays are interested in making him their closer.
Sox are apparently the leaders in the race for Gagne. The Indians, who also are pursuing Gagne, will probably turn to Dotel for their closer. If Dotel is serious about playing for a winner, the D-Rays aren't in his thoughts. The question is will the Yanks be willing to pay enough to make the Indians offer unattractive. Given the state of the rotation I hope they are. But you're right Dotel is far from a sure thing.
Spiker101
12-05-06, 07:12 PM
so wait are the yanks interested in andy/burhle?
what's going on?
There is at least one report the Yanks have all but wrapped up Andy.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/12/05/yankees.pettitte/index.html
Sox are apparently the leaders in the race for Gagne. The Indians, who also are pursuing Gagne, will probably turn to Dotel for their closer. If Dotel is serious about playing for a winner, the D-Rays aren't in his thoughts. The question is will the Yanks be willing to pay enough to make the Indians offer unattractive. Given the state of the rotation I hope they are. But you're right Dotel is far from a sure thing.
Sadly, the same thing can be said about Farnworth.
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 07:27 PM
Sox are apparently the leaders in the race for Gagne. The Indians, who also are pursuing Gagne, will probably turn to Dotel for their closer. If Dotel is serious about playing for a winner, the D-Rays aren't in his thoughts. The question is will the Yanks be willing to pay enough to make the Indians offer unattractive. Given the state of the rotation I hope they are. But you're right Dotel is far from a sure thing.
If we paid him to rehab his now bionic arm just so he could be ready to pitch for the Sox I'm not going to be happy.
(According to the wiki entry on TJS, "It is not uncommon today for pitchers to throw harder after the surgery than they did before the injury that caused the surgery to be necessary. However, this results not because of the surgery itself, but from the rigorous rehabilitation that ensues following surgery.")
If we paid him to rehab his now bionic arm just so he could be ready to pitch for the Sox I'm not going to be happy.
(According to the wiki entry on TJS, "It is not uncommon today for pitchers to throw harder after the surgery than they did before the injury that caused the surgery to be necessary. However, this results not because of the surgery itself, but from the rigorous rehabilitation that ensues following surgery.")
Interesting. Thanks!
Panamaniac42
12-05-06, 07:31 PM
I know this is the Yankees WM Thread, but apparently the Drew deal is 5 years, $70 mil.
I thought they were broke...rotoworld pretty much sums it up:
"it's going to be tough for the Red Sox to find room for Ramirez, J.D. Drew, Daisuke Matsuzaka and maybe Julio Lugo and Eric Gagne and still stay in the vicinity of the luxury tax cutoff."
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