View Full Version : Yanks/Sox Salary/Revenue Discussion
JKelley34
01-17-07, 08:58 AM
Update for Wily Mo Pena arb numbers.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-redsox-arbitration&prov=ap&type=lgns
He asked for $2.2 while the Red Sox offered $1.7.
Donnelly asked for $1.65 while the Red Sox offered $1.15.
Should trim $1.65 (if both players win) to $2.65 (if they both lose) off of Lucen's payroll projections.
kobayashimaru
01-17-07, 08:41 PM
Jorge Posada c
5 years/$51M (2002-06), plus $12M 2007 club option
$15M signing bonus (paid 2002-06)
$1.5M in 02, $2M in 03, $3M in 04, $4M in 05, $4.5M in 06
02:$4M, 03:$5M, 04:$6M, 05:$8M, 06:$9M, 07:$12M club option ($4M buyout) (guaranteed with 330 games as catcher from 2004 to 2006)
if option is exercised, Posada receives the buyout in 2008
15 (bonus)+4+5+6+8+9+12 (option)+4 (buyout) = 63
Plus, the Yankees have been being taxed for a $10.2 contract over the past 5 years. It just makes more sense the option would make it $10.5 rather than $12. Big jumps in tax numbers like that happen in new contracts, not in current ones.
So I guess I wasn't so clear the first time. I'm only looking at things from tax basis. So Arod on tax basis is 25.2 million. Yankees were shipped 71 million for him so that 71 million is left on the Ranger's payroll thus for the Yankees on tax basis Arod is 25.2 - 71.
Posada's original contract on Tax basis was 51 million over 5 years or 51/5. But since the option was picked up, we become responsible for 12 MORE million (4 in buyout next year and 8 this year (4 other million is ALREADY taxed)). That amount is over 1 contract year. Thus I left Posada at 12 million. I hope that is clear.
This is the most logical way for me to do it. It's all about what ammount that is tax or not tax that I'm concerned with.
Update for Wily Mo Pena arb numbers.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-redsox-arbitration&prov=ap&type=lgns
He asked for $2.2 while the Red Sox offered $1.7.
Donnelly asked for $1.65 while the Red Sox offered $1.15.
Should trim $1.65 (if both players win) to $2.65 (if they both lose) off of Lucen's payroll projections.
As soon as we get confirmation on the arb awards, we'll update accodingly. I finally got around to putting Kobay's latest excell file into the first post. I also put it in a table so it takes up less space and stays neat and clean. There are occassional players whose numbers jump out to the right, but any attempt to fix them screws up the entire table. So we'll just have to deal with their numbers being a little right of center.
Again, sorry about the delay... work has been keeping me from even visiting these forums, nevermind getting to this post.
Again, sorry about the delay... work has been keeping me from even visiting these forums, nevermind getting to this post.
No need to sorry about that, really. You and kobayashimaru both have done a great great job. :2thumbs:
kobayashimaru
01-22-07, 09:52 AM
As soon as we get confirmation on the arb awards, we'll update accodingly. I finally got around to putting Kobay's latest excell file into the first post. I also put it in a table so it takes up less space and stays neat and clean. There are occassional players whose numbers jump out to the right, but any attempt to fix them screws up the entire table. So we'll just have to deal with their numbers being a little right of center.
Again, sorry about the delay... work has been keeping me from even visiting these forums, nevermind getting to this post.
good job with the table. I think it's because of tabbing issues that it gets messed up. Thanks for the update. Waiting for Arb. numbers now. :)
Donelly and the Sox apparently agreed on a 1 year 1.4 million dollar contract, avoiding arbitration. He can bump up by 25,000 twice in the season by completing 25, and then 30 games, possibly raising the value of the deal to 1.9 million.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-redsox-donnelly&prov=ap&type=lgns
So I updated the table to reflect this news.
simmy886
01-30-07, 01:37 PM
I'm a little confused. Can someone please in simple terms explain where the Yankees and Red Sox stand right now in terms of team payroll for 2007.
kobayashimaru
01-30-07, 01:41 PM
I'm a little confused. Can someone please in simple terms explain where the Yankees and Red Sox stand right now in terms of team payroll for 2007.
182.34 for the Yankees
153 for the Red Sox
Is where we stand thus far.
I'm interested in the payroll difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox, and the difference between the Red Sox and the third highest payroll team.
182.34 for the Yankees
153 for the Red Sox
Is where we stand thus far.
Its getting closer.
What were the teams salaries in 2006?
kobayashimaru
01-30-07, 05:56 PM
I'm interested in the payroll difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox, and the difference between the Red Sox and the third highest payroll team.
That would be a very hard question to answer since we would have to do the same work for almost all the teams. Though I bet it is about as far apart given the off season activity by the cubs and the rangers.
kobayashimaru
01-30-07, 06:00 PM
What were the teams salaries in 2006?
according to CBS Sportsline - I don't vouch for their numbers and I'm sure we make different assumptions here.
Yankees were at 198.662
Red Sox were at 120.101
Difference was 78.561
How the world has changed :)
http://sportsline.com/mlb/salaries
kobayashimaru
02-16-07, 10:41 PM
quick update should be pretty close to final numbers
quick update should be pretty close to final numbers
Are you sure we are on the hook for $4 million to Wright?
I thought it was only 2 or 3.
NDBoston
02-17-07, 03:54 AM
Are you sure we are on the hook for $4 million to Wright?
I thought it was only 2 or 3.
Here's what happened when I searched for "Jaret Wright trade" in Google.
Wright was traded to the Orioles on Sunday for right-handed reliever Chris Britton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7729). As part of the deal, the Yankees will pay $4 million of Wright's $7 million salary next year.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2658959
That took 30 seconds.
Here's what happened when I searched for "Jaret Wright trade" in Google.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2658959
That took 30 seconds.
No need to be so smug. My recollection of the transaction turned out to be incorrect. Mistakes happen.
GraniteYankee
02-17-07, 09:15 AM
182.34 for the Yankees
153 for the Red Sox
Is where we stand thus far.
As a percentage of revenue, the Yanks (277, 66%) are actually spending less on salary then the Sox (206, 74%), it all depends on how you slice the #'s.
Source: Forbes
NDBoston
02-17-07, 10:16 AM
No need to be so smug. My recollection was of the transaction turned out to be incorrect. Mistakes happen.
No offense Mark, but those type of questions drive me crazy. Some people took plenty of time and research to come up wih these numbers and all it takes is a 30 second search to answer a question instead of relying on them to do the work for you.
NDBoston
02-17-07, 10:17 AM
As a percentage of revenue, the Yanks (277, 66%) are actually spending less on salary then the Sox (206, 74%), it all depends on how you slice the #'s.
Source: Forbes
That doesn't include cable and radio revenue.
No offense Mark, but those type of questions drive me crazy. Some people took plenty of time and research to come up wih these numbers and all it takes is a 30 second search to answer a question instead of relying on them to do the work for you.
You're right, I probably should have done a quick search myself. I had confused the contract buy-out price for the amount of cash sent to Baltimore.
Ugh, what an ill-advised signing. At least the Yanks saved some money and got a promising reliever in return.
GraniteYankee
02-17-07, 12:42 PM
That doesn't include cable and radio revenue.
Actually it does. Gate receipts were $145MM for 2005 (2006 numbers won't come out until April).
Yankees http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/334613.html
Red Sox http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/330700.html
In 2009, obviously things change with the new Stadium when ticket/luxury suite revenues could reach an additional $45MM according to estimates.
Updated to reflect the extension for Wily Mo.
182.34 for the Yankees
153 for the Red Sox
Is where we stand thus far.
When you factor in the difference between the posting fees of DiceK and Igawa, it's slmost a dead heat for this year in terms of money each team will spend to field 25 players
Guys,
I think Proctor makes the league minimum, not 1 million. Anyway to confirm that?
Also if Villone makes the team, he gets 2.5 mil
NDBoston
03-04-07, 10:50 AM
When you factor in the difference between the posting fees of DiceK and Igawa, it's slmost a dead heat for this year in terms of money each team will spend to field 25 players
The luxury tax payments would then change the dead heat.
YankeePride1967
03-04-07, 10:58 AM
The luxury tax payments would then change the dead heat.
Not enough to put Boston at a disadvantage competitively to the Yanks though.
NDBoston
03-04-07, 11:27 AM
Not enough to put Boston at a disadvantage competitively to the Yanks though.
If you want to put the whole posting fee in one year and play with the numbers that way, fine. I just find it interesting that the luxury tax was argued on here never to be counted because it came from a separate budget (which is a load of crap btw IMO) and suddenly the posting fees are recognized and counted for one year instead of six.
At the end of the day, the Red Sox have been spending like drunken soldiers this off season so any advantage is minimum. The Yankees still enjoy a nice advantage in the scouting department which I think is underrated but I will save that argument for another day and thread.
I'm off to a baseball game :)
YankeePride1967
03-04-07, 01:09 PM
If you want to put the whole posting fee in one year and play with the numbers that way, fine. I just find it interesting that the luxury tax was argued on here never to be counted because it came from a separate budget (which is a load of crap btw IMO) and suddenly the posting fees are recognized and counted for one year instead of six.
At the end of the day, the Red Sox have been spending like drunken soldiers this off season so any advantage is minimum. The Yankees still enjoy a nice advantage in the scouting department which I think is underrated but I will save that argument for another day and thread.
I'm off to a baseball game :)
Even taking the posting fees out. If the difference is 180ish to 150ish, that's still not enough though for it to be a huge advantage. Now it really is 1-2 then the others. I agree that the posting fee/luxury tax either has to BOTH be included or neither.
Even taking the posting fees out. If the difference is 180ish to 150ish, that's still not enough though for it to be a huge advantage. Now it really is 1-2 then the others. I agree that the posting fee/luxury tax either has to BOTH be included or neither.
I think we can all agree that 150 to 180 million does constitute an advantage, but not a huge one. It's all in how you word it, really. Is 30 million an advantage? Of course. Is it one that should handicap the Sox FO? No, certainly not.
And if need be, it's likely the Sox could spend that extra 30 million if it means a shot at the world series. They seem to be in as close to "go for it now" mode as you can get without actually crossing that line. I hope they keep Buchholz, Bowden, Ellsbury, Bard and Cox off limits, but honestly, there isn't another prospect in the system I'd be terribly disappointed to see go, if it means bringing in the kind of player who could seriously increase the chances we win another championship this year. A Brad Lidge type? :) (No, I don't think the Astros would give up Lidge without at least one of those names included... but I can dream)
Anyway, the Sox have closed the gap significantly this year and shown they can spend with pretty much anybody. I'm sure the Yankees could open the wallet and blow up their payroll to the tune of 220 million if they had to, but Cashman has shown more restraint than that. As long as he's keeping the payroll around 180 million, there really isn't much for Sox fans to complain about. Not that I thought it was an argument worth much time before...
Yankees1962
03-04-07, 04:08 PM
To the rest of MLB, both teams are Evil Empires 1A and 1B.
YankeePride1967
03-04-07, 04:33 PM
I think we can all agree that 150 to 180 million does constitute an advantage, but not a huge one. It's all in how you word it, really. Is 30 million an advantage? Of course. Is it one that should handicap the Sox FO? No, certainly not.
And if need be, it's likely the Sox could spend that extra 30 million if it means a shot at the world series. They seem to be in as close to "go for it now" mode as you can get without actually crossing that line. I hope they keep Buchholz, Bowden, Ellsbury, Bard and Cox off limits, but honestly, there isn't another prospect in the system I'd be terribly disappointed to see go, if it means bringing in the kind of player who could seriously increase the chances we win another championship this year. A Brad Lidge type? :) (No, I don't think the Astros would give up Lidge without at least one of those names included... but I can dream)
Anyway, the Sox have closed the gap significantly this year and shown they can spend with pretty much anybody. I'm sure the Yankees could open the wallet and blow up their payroll to the tune of 220 million if they had to, but Cashman has shown more restraint than that. As long as he's keeping the payroll around 180 million, there really isn't much for Sox fans to complain about. Not that I thought it was an argument worth much time before...
Technically a team with a 180 million payroll has an advantage over a team with a 179 million payroll. But 180-150 is not a wide enough of an advantage for the150 million team to cry a money problem which you allude to in the second paragraph. It is no longer the Yankees t h e n Boston and everyone else, it is more like Yankees, Boston a n d (I think there are a few teams around 120 so they would be up there to) then everyone else.
Technically a team with a 180 million payroll has an advantage over a team with a 179 million payroll. But 180-150 is not a wide enough of an advantage for the150 million team to cry a money problem which you allude to in the second paragraph. It is no longer the Yankees t h e n Boston and everyone else, it is more like Yankees, Boston a n d (I think there are a few teams around 120 so they would be up there to) then everyone else.
It's funny how some sawx fans ( not you Lucen ) almost reflexively hang on to the underdog financial status of the sawx v the Yanks- even after this offseasons spending.
If i were a sawx fan, when confronted with the narrowing gap, I wouldn't turn to the luxury tax to try and maintain the distance between the 2 teams. I'd be happy the sawx are spending the resources they have had all along on the team- rather than whining about the Yanks "uber" resources.
I'm glad the Yanks have those resources ( to increase with the new stadium ) even though they haven't spent it wisely at times. People forget that the spending gap is a very recent phenomenon .
It's my least favorite discussion in the rivalry
It's funny how some sawx fans ( not you Lucen ) almost reflexively hang on to the underdog financial status of the sawx v the Yanks- even after this offseasons spending.
If i were a sawx fan, when confronted with the narrowing gap, I wouldn't turn to the luxury tax to try and maintain the distance between the 2 teams. I'd be happy the sawx are spending the resources they have had all along on the team- rather than whining about the Yanks "uber" resources.
I'm glad the Yanks have those resources ( to increase with the new stadium ) even though they haven't spent it wisely at times. People forget that the spending gap is a very recent phenomenon .
That's my stance, pretty much in a nutshell.
It's my least favorite discussion in the rivalry
Yeah, it gets tiresome real quickly.
NDBoston
03-05-07, 11:35 AM
It's funny how some sawx fans ( not you Lucen ) almost reflexively hang on to the underdog financial status of the sawx v the Yanks- even after this offseasons spending.
If i were a sawx fan, when confronted with the narrowing gap, I wouldn't turn to the luxury tax to try and maintain the distance between the 2 teams. I'd be happy the sawx are spending the resources they have had all along on the team- rather than whining about the Yanks "uber" resources.
I'm glad the Yanks have those resources ( to increase with the new stadium ) even though they haven't spent it wisely at times. People forget that the spending gap is a very recent phenomenon .
It's my least favorite discussion in the rivalry
Work on your reading comprehension skills.
At the end of the day, the Red Sox have been spending like drunken soldiers this off season so any advantage is minimum
The Red Sox haven't had the resources "all along". The Yankees bring in at least 120 million more in revenue a year and that will widen with the new stadium opening. In plain english, The Red Sox will never spend close to the same dollars with the Yankees unless they move to the New York media market or the next person running the Yankees cuts spending. Those type of comments either mean you're uninformed or just looking to start an argument.
You want to change standard accounting practices and spin the numbers so the Red Sox and the Yankees will spend around the same dollars this year. Clearly it bothers you that there's a gap between the two teams so you use any means necessary to eliminate that. That's fine. Whatever makes you sleep at night.
The Yankees have had a significant competitive advantage over the Red Sox the last 5 years. I've said the same thing about the Red Sox versus the rest of the league. It will be a minimum advantage this year. Period, the end.
Dynasties R Forever
03-05-07, 12:14 PM
Work on your reading comprehension skills.
The Red Sox haven't had the resources "all along". The Yankees bring in at least 120 million more in revenue a year and that will widen with the new stadium opening. In plain english, The Red Sox will never spend close to the same dollars with the Yankees unless they move to the New York media market or the next person running the Yankees cuts spending. Those type of comments either mean you're uninformed or just looking to start an argument.
You want to change standard accounting practices and spin the numbers so the Red Sox and the Yankees will spend around the same dollars this year. Clearly it bothers you that there's a gap between the two teams so you use any means necessary to eliminate that. That's fine. Whatever makes you sleep at night.
The Yankees have had a significant competitive advantage over the Red Sox the last 5 years. I've said the same thing about the Red Sox versus the rest of the league. It will be a minimum advantage this year. Period, the end.
Waah waah waah. :o Welcome to the tyranny of life. Where the strong seek to take advantage of the weak. The only thing the vast majority of Yankee fans care about is another title. The rest is all BS. Cry me a river.
The Forbes list from the 2005 season: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/Rank_1.html
The Yankees value was 1,026,000,000.00. The Sox were at 617,000,000.00. That's a huge gap in worth and I can't imagine that gap closed enough to make it negligable. Of course, being worth that much doesn't mean the teams will spend in a way that reflect that gap accurately.
Also interesting is that the Yankees operated at -50 million in 2005 while the Sox operated at -18.5 million. The Yankees brought in 277 million while the Sox brought in 206 million. I don't think that includes YES or NESN, however.
Just some interesting numbers to add to the debate. In the end, IMO, all that matters is how much the teams spend. Right now, they're both spending far more money on their rosters and drafts than any other team. And what used to be a huge gap between them has closed significantly. I'm just happy to see the Sox finally flexing their financial muscle.
yankeebot
04-01-07, 02:11 PM
*bump*
Sooooo, Lucen, any chance we could get an update now that the rosters are set?
destiNY
04-01-07, 02:26 PM
Waah waah waah. :o Welcome to the tyranny of life. Where the strong seek to take advantage of the weak. The only thing the vast majority of Yankee fans care about is another title. The rest is all BS. Cry me a river.
It is really that easy and simple, this belief that the majority of Yankee fans care about anything other than a WS title is laughable.
*bump*
Sooooo, Lucen, any chance we could get an update now that the rosters are set?
I'll try to get to this some time this week, but at the moment I'm working 10-14 hour days with a 2 hour drive each way... I'm moving this week to cut the drive down to 20 minutes, which should give me some free time... but I can't do this right away.
If I wasn't leaving for a wake right now, I'd get on it at this moment, but I need to get moving. Maybe Kobay can do an update in Excel and post the file. I can then just copy and paste it into the original post. If he can't spare the time, I'll get to it later in the week.
kobayashimaru
04-01-07, 03:07 PM
I'll try to get to this some time this week, but at the moment I'm working 10-14 hour days with a 2 hour drive each way... I'm moving this week to cut the drive down to 20 minutes, which should give me some free time... but I can't do this right away.
If I wasn't leaving for a wake right now, I'd get on it at this moment, but I need to get moving. Maybe Kobay can do an update in Excel and post the file. I can then just copy and paste it into the original post. If he can't spare the time, I'll get to it later in the week.
I'll work on it a post the excel file but they should be not different then before. 2 reasons. A) If you notice the currently posted roster is almost identical to the 25 man currently have, if not those who replace them are on the same ammount (major league minimum such as DeBarr). B) Some people who didn't make the roster are on the 40 man with a major league contract so you have to pay anyways (for example Hansen).
The update might take awhile if you want to change the assumption that all major league minimum makes .38 since they don't. For example, Cano got more than .40 this year with a raise. Wang got fined .025 for not signing his contract, which was renewed by the team. (as an objection so that he can get a better deal next year in arbitration).
Anyways, I will updated the roster and information. If someone can help with coming up the exact contract ammount for the major league minimum earner that would be really useful.
Looks like some Yankee-hating goon at the AP didn't do his payroll homework: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2822968
He lists the Yanks at $195 million and the Red Sox at $142 million. Don't they have fact-checkers over there?
kobayashimaru
04-03-07, 10:49 AM
Looks like some Yankee-hating goon at the AP didn't do his payroll homework: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2822968
He lists the Yanks at $195 million and the Red Sox at $142 million. Don't they have fact-checkers over there?
who knows how they got to the number. Shocks me the Ms are at 106 million with such a crappy team. How do you spend money so unwisely?
p.s. oh I'm behind on the update will try to do them tonight.
kobayashimaru
04-14-07, 11:20 AM
updated please double check please
players not called up to major is assumed taking a minor league salary.
Prickly Pete
05-06-07, 03:16 PM
There might be an adjustment needed here. ;)
http://images.sportsnetwork.com/baseball/mlb/allsport/houston/clemens_roger19.jpg
kobayashimaru
05-06-07, 03:22 PM
There might be an adjustment needed here. ;)
http://images.sportsnetwork.com/baseball/mlb/allsport/houston/clemens_roger19.jpg
working on it right now
since Rogers contract is still unconfirmed
I'm giving him the ammount for a minor league contract... so no change to the payroll guys. Nothing to see here.
:D
ballfour
05-06-07, 03:22 PM
Red Sox fans will probably be pleased at the Clemens signing because it lets them pretend payroll will play a role in their eventual defeat for the division this season.
trapper700
05-06-07, 03:27 PM
Clemens' contract will be a pro-rated salary of $28 million dollars, according to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2862088
if that's true, then i'd say it changes it by quite a bit ;)
Red Sox fans will probably be pleased at the Clemens signing because it lets them pretend payroll will play a role in their eventual defeat for the division this season.
ALready a quote on that sawx board saying how satisfying it is that the Yanks ahve to rely on merceneries ( with no mention of Dicek's $100M sticker price )
Too funny
ballfour
05-06-07, 03:52 PM
ALready a quote on that sawx board saying how satisfying it is that the Yanks ahve to rely on merceneries ( with no mention of Dicek's $100M sticker price )
Too funny
Yeah, I have been reading through some of the more popular Sox boards and the reaction is hysterical so far. The grapes couldn't possibly get any more sour, and I for one love every word of it.
kobayashimaru
05-06-07, 06:17 PM
my first update attempt.
assuming we get no money back for Pavano.
my first update attempt.
assuming we get no money back for Pavano.
I've had this discussion on another thread, but you seem to know the salary rules better than most, so I'll ask you:
What difference would it make if the Yankees get insurance money back for Pavano? He's on a guaranteed contract and they're still obligated to pay him whether they get compensated as a result of an independent insurance transaction or not.
Is there some provision in the CBA that takes a team off the luxury tax hook when a player cannot physically play and they receive insurance payouts to compensate them for his salary? If not, any Pavano insurance should have no effect whatsoever on payroll or luxury tax numbers.
BeantownYankee
05-06-07, 06:41 PM
ALready a quote on that sawx board saying how satisfying it is that the Yanks ahve to rely on merceneries ( with no mention of Dicek's $100M sticker price )
Too funny
or JD "I'll opt out of anything for more Money" Drew
ballfour
05-06-07, 06:47 PM
or JD "I'll opt out of anything for more Money" Drew
Or Curt Schilling, or Manny Ramirez, or Keith Foulke, etc, etc.
But everybody knows people only play for the Red Sox out of the kindness of their heart and a love for the city of Boston. ;)
kobayashimaru
05-06-07, 06:57 PM
I've had this discussion on another thread, but you seem to know the salary rules better than most, so I'll ask you:
What difference would it make if the Yankees get insurance money back for Pavano? He's on a guaranteed contract and they're still obligated to pay him whether they get compensated as a result of an independent insurance transaction or not.
Is there some provision in the CBA that takes a team off the luxury tax hook when a player cannot physically play and they receive insurance payouts to compensate them for his salary? If not, any Pavano insurance should have no effect whatsoever on payroll or luxury tax numbers.
from what I understand, and it is VERY MINIMAL, as we never get to see the whole contract, I assume the yankee would still have to pay Pavano's luxury tax as it counts against their payroll.
They would just get some/all of the money from his remaining contract back via insurance. It doesn't have much impact on the payroll at all but it would impact the cash statement.
I am really not sure about the CBA since I never read it in too much details. I'm probably going to spend some time looking back at how Mike Hampton's situation is handled to see if there is anything to learn from that.
kobayashimaru
05-25-07, 10:54 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6839726
Dayn Perry has the payroll number at 195.229 million for the Yankees without Clemens.
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